Explosive Ammo is better than everything else for MM

[Frogturtle]

hello ppl xd Bv)

ok srs bsns time lul

So recently in the twonk community I've found amongst some ppl that there's a debate on which gun enchant is the best for MM hunter

So there are a few different ones but generally the 2 that people advocate for are Flintlocke's Woodchucker and Explosive Ammunition:

Flintlocke's: +71 agi proc that lasts for 10 seconds
Explosive Ammo: 2-400ish instant damage proc that can crit, proc rate of ~2 per minute

Ok so keep that in mind. now let's talk about MM hunter damage in general and why it's good.

MM hunter's goal with damage is not sustained. It's BURST damage. Ideally we hit someone with an aimed shot that does 70%+ of their HP instantly before they can react. In the current BFA meta, both in War Games and in pugs, mid damage revolves around catching someone off-guard by bursting them to death before a healer can respond. If the damage output is too extended, healers will have time to mitigate further incoming damage and the target generally won't die.

Generally, the go-to burst damage bread and butter combo for MM hunter is Aimed Shot+Arcane Shot (which can be buffered during the second half of the Aimed Shot cast to come out instantly.) This packs as much damage into a single global as possible.

I don't think anyone would disagree with this.

So the question then is simple: Which enchant does more burst damage: Flintlocke's Woodchucker, or Explosive Ammunition?

I already know the answer as you may have guessed, but I'll give you the numbers anyway.

For this scenario, I have Lone Wolf on, which is a +10% increase to all damage while I don't have a pet out. So every hunter ability has been modified to do 10% additional damage. Crits are calculated with a modifier of +150%, which is the modifier used in PvP.

Let's look at Flintlocke's first:

My base agility: 155
My agility with Flintlocke's proc: 226

Aimed Shot crit: 1072
Arc Shot crit: 258

TOTAL DAMAGE: 1330

Now, let's look at Explosive Ammo:

Aimed Shot crit: 769
Arc Shot crit: 186
Explosive Ammo crit: 600

TOTAL DAMAGE: 1555

Aimed Shot crit: 769
Arc Shot crit: 186
Explosive Ammo LOWER-END crit: 400

TOTAL DAMAGE: 1455

As you can see, even if Explosive Ammo RNG is less than ideal, it STILL DOES MORE DAMAGE in a single global than Flintlocke's Woodchucker.

Furthermore, a fact that is often overlooked is armor. Against Bear Form and Rshamans (shield users) then Flintlocke's loses MORE DAMAGE than Explosive Ammo because its damage is dumped into the hit value of Aimed Shot, which is reduced by armor, whereas Explosive Ammo deals fire damage, which is NOT reduced by armor.

FURTHERfurthermore, if I'm not mistaken, due to the fact that Explosive Ammo is an additional hit, it also has a chance to proc enchants such as Satyr, which would add even more damage to your burst combo.

So, in the window of a single global, which ideal in PUGs and War Games for MM Hunter, Explosive Ammo does more overall burst than Flintlocke's. This is especially true against targets with higher armor. While Flintlocke's MIGHT deal more damage over an extended period, because Explosive Ammo has a proc rate of roughly 2 per minute (once every 30 seconds,) then even that is up for debate. But I only focused on burst damage for this test.

A lot of you know this already, but just to conclude:

***TLDR, Explosive Ammunition is the best gun enchant you can use as MM Hunter, given the current state of the meta, the superior burst numbers, as well as the elemental/extra hit properties of the proc itself.***

The end. Happy twinking.

- Frogturtle the GODturtle

 

[inoobupro]

why did you use rainbow like colors

ar u a undercover sekret honk honkler irl?

 

[Frogturtle]

why did you use rainbow like colors

ar u a undercover sekret honk honkler irl?

watch my vid ull understand

 

[inoobupro]

lol

hehe xd

wrong context on my part

cuz everytime I see anything frog related and rainbow colors it sends different messages to me

 

[Tonkks]

@Frogturtle you make some great points above, especially in regards to explosive shot disregarding armor. I do not plan a hunter, nor do I claim to know what is the better enchant.

However, the one thing that is not completely correct from your assumptions is that in your testing, you are assuming that this fire damage proc is going to happen in your burst scenario. What gives flint a bonus here is that you have that 10 second window you mentioned when you KNOW you are going to have increased damage. This can be especially helpful in a premade scenario where the hunter can target-call and express that he has a proc, and for the team to use their burst on his target.

 

[Frogturtle]

@Frogturtle you make some great points above, especially in regards to explosive shot disregarding armor. I do not plan a hunter, nor do I claim to know what is the better enchant.

However, the one thing that is not completely correct from your assumptions is that in your testing, you are assuming that this fire damage proc is going to happen in your burst scenario. What gives flint a bonus here is that you have that 10 second window you mentioned when you KNOW you are going to have increased damage. This can be especially helpful in a premade scenario where the hunter can target-call and express that he has a proc, and for the team to use their burst on his target.

yeah but even then, you don't know when Flintlocke's is going to proc, so you could just make the same argument

there's a bigger grace period but still, if your team is making a go and you don't get a flintlocke's proc you're in the same situation
[doublepost=1551635750,1551635499][/doublepost]

@Frogturtle you make some great points above, especially in regards to explosive shot disregarding armor. I do not plan a hunter, nor do I claim to know what is the better enchant.

However, the one thing that is not completely correct from your assumptions is that in your testing, you are assuming that this fire damage proc is going to happen in your burst scenario. What gives flint a bonus here is that you have that 10 second window you mentioned when you KNOW you are going to have increased damage. This can be especially helpful in a premade scenario where the hunter can target-call and express that he has a proc, and for the team to use their burst on his target.

I should also point out, and this is a really strong case against Flintlocke's in this situation, that you can actually make a weakaura that calls out an opponent's Flintlocke's proc, which lets you play around it - whereas there's no preparing for an EA proc

 

[Warglave]

Ele Force

wut?

 

[Chops]

how will the nerf to incendiary ammo and flintlocks affect this math in 9 days?

 

[The Saint]

how will the nerf to incendiary ammo and flintlocks affect this math in 9 days?

I have a feeling frost ammo will be bis

 

[Warglave]

Frost still hits for less, and what good is a slow that is completely random? If you can "rely" on the slow proccing when you need it to, you can "rely" on the better damage of incendiary burst then. Same proc rate, right?

If frost is "better" after the patch, then it's already "better" now.

 

[Frogturtle]

wut?

you're right meant to just say satyr, ill make the edit

 

[Lateraldrop]

flintlocks has a dmg proc to is as well tho right? I don't see that calculated anywhere.
[doublepost=1551642512,1551641990][/doublepost]Also, in reality a hunter will switch off of woodchuk after the proc. For example i switch to +4 dmg scope (adds 80 more dmg on the aimed shot and 19 dmg on the arcame non crit.) . There is no point in taking advantage of weapon swaps w explosive ammo.

 

[Warglave]

There is no point in taking advantage of weapon swaps w explosive ammo.

Kind of a pro, not a con...

 

[Frogturtle]

The damage proc is trivial, weapon swapping incurs a GCD which is bad, and you’re doing a bunch of pointless work when explosive shot instantly accomplishes virtually the same thing in a way that cannot be detected in advance by the enemy team

It’s better to be efficient than cool

flintlocks has a dmg proc to is as well tho right? I don't see that calculated anywhere.
[doublepost=1551642512,1551641990][/doublepost]Also, in reality a hunter will switch off of woodchuk after the proc. For example i switch to +4 dmg scope (adds 80 more dmg on the aimed shot and 19 dmg on the arcame non crit.) . There is no point in taking advantage of weapon swaps w explosive ammo.

 

[Lateraldrop]

The damage proc is trivial, weapon swapping incurs a GCD which is bad, and you’re doing a bunch of pointless work when explosive shot instantly accomplishes virtually the same thing in a way that cannot be detected in advance by the enemy team

It’s better to be efficient than cool

Even if it incures a GCD your whole point was the most dmg that you can stack at one time would mean that the GCD is worth lining up better burst. Since it costs a gcd before your burst combo and sustained dmg is not what you are measuring you really cant discount it in your arguement. +4 dmg adds (on 1.5x crit) 120 dmg to the aimed and 28 dmg to arcane. You add those to your total previous calculations and get 1478 total. That puts it inside the same damage variance of explosive ammo but you don't have to pray for it to proc in your rotation you can just keep an aimedshot charge so it is available whenever you get your proc. Seems like a wash at best to me.
[doublepost=1551667443,1551667270][/doublepost]

Kind of a pro, not a con...

Not being able to use an advantage is always a con my friend.

 

[Warglave]

Not being able to use an advantage is always a con my friend.

You mean like being LoS or CC the full duration of your proc? Agreed.

 

[Lateraldrop]

LoS and CC can happen any time you try to burst. you have a visible cast time.

 

[Substrate]

Great info frogturtle, thanks!

 

[Warglave]

LoS and CC can happen any time you try to burst. you have a visible cast time.

Not incendiary.

edit- when it happens, it happens. No LoS or CC to work around. The ONLY problems I can see is proccing into an invulnerability or not getting full damage out of it because the target had less life left. One of those isn't even a problem...

It's just another pro.

You try to make your argument so you can feel pro about weapon swaps but you just make your counter stronger.

 

[necroaqua]

Explosive Ammo does more overall burst than Flintlocke's

Not to be a stickler, but thats not what your numbers are showing. The more accurate thing to say would be "Explosive Ammo can do more overall burst than Flintlocke's". If explosive ammo hits (and crits) during the your burst - then its higher damage. If explosive ammo has procced a few seconds before you started casting aimed shot - its already been healed and the odds are low to proc it again during your combo.

So its not really a fair comparison to throw in the best case scenario for explosive ammo and make it seem like it will always be better.

Also assuming every shot crits throws things for a bit of a loop. It depends on your crit of course, but with say 20% crit - the odds of critting both aimed shot and arcane shot are 1 in 25. The odds of critting aimed, arcane, and explosive shot are 1 in 125. Its fine if you're looking at the max possible hit regardless of the odds...but its hard to tell which is better without taking into account how often those scenarios happen.

Let's look at Flintlocke's first:

My base agility: 155
My agility with Flintlocke's proc: 226

Aimed Shot crit: 1072
Arc Shot crit: 258

TOTAL DAMAGE: 1330

Now, let's look at Explosive Ammo:

Aimed Shot crit: 769
Arc Shot crit: 186
Explosive Ammo crit: 600

TOTAL DAMAGE: 1555

Aimed Shot crit: 769
Arc Shot crit: 186
Explosive Ammo LOWER-END crit: 400

TOTAL DAMAGE: 1455

So using your numbers, lets add a couple of additional scenarios.

The base case. The potential damage when you don't get a proc.

Aimed Shot crit: 769
Arc Shot crit: 186
TOTAL DAMAGE: 955



Por que no los dos? The swap case. Use flintlocke until you get a proc, then spend a global to swap to explosive and combo. As mentioned, this can make it easier to call out and coordinate with the rest of your team to secure a kill - but theres also some counterplay if someone sees you get the buff and kites or LoS or something.

Aimed Shot crit: 1072
Arc Shot crit: 258
Explosive Ammo crit: 400-600

TOTAL DAMAGE: 1730-1930

Side note...you state explosive ammo does 200-400 damage, but the lower end crit is 400 - so I think there was a typo in there, since 200*1.5 =/= 400. If so, then the lower end crit is actually pretty in line with flintlocks.


But I'll again emphasize that these are the max potential numbers. The odds of critting 2-3 times throws this off. The 10% chance to proc flintlocke with the 40sec ICD vs the 2 RPPM explosive ammo. If we really wanted max numbers, we'd add in hidden satyr, which procs more often than explosive ammo and is affected by AP.

What does it mean? It means that its hard to tell if theres a clear winner. Flintlocke changes the playstyle up, and doesn't actually preclude getting that explosive ammo proc either. Explosive shot is way easier in terms of playstyle, because you simply have it and hope to be lucky. I'd say new hunters should start with explosive shot since its easy to use. As you play more and if you start wargaming, then look at flintlockes in combination with explosive ammo - assuming it fits with your team's playstyle and plan.

But chops brings a pretty good point up...

how will the nerf to incendiary ammo and flintlocks affect this math in 9 days?

I'm not totally sure. Flintlockes, Gnomish Xray, Explosive ammo, and frost ammo are all slated for nerfs in 8.1.5. I don't remember if some are nerfed way more than others - but I'm guessing that the buff scopes might not be worth the additional work to play around the ICD with their numbers significantly reduced. Explosive ammo retains its ease of use even with the reduced numbers.

I remember looking at the straight up +weapon damage scopes as well...but can't remember the conclusion.

We'll also have to see how things change overall. The big list of changes will likely shake up the meta a bit.