CRUSADER VS LIFESTEAL on SHADOWFANG for level 19 WARRIOR

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  1. Floot

    Floot New Member

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    WoW Classic - CRUSADER VS LIFESTEAL on SHADOWFANG for level 19 WARRIOR

    **IN CONSTRUCTION/EDITING** **IN CONSTRUCTION/EDITING**


    THIS IS A COMMUNITY ANALYSIS AND COMPILATION.

    The point is NOT to say that THIS or THAT enchant sucks but rather create a precise comparison depending on the situation in a PVP scenario.

    *Every valuable data will be researched, verified and added to the post.
    WITH YOUR NAME ADDED TO THE CONTRIBUTORS LIST.*


    (READ DISCLAIMERS)

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    CONTRIBUTORS:

    E T Phone Gnome

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    FORMAT:

    +DATA&SOURCES
    +DISCLAIMER (PLEASE READ DISCLAIMERS)
    +WHY THIS?

    ENCHANT A or B
    PPM
    BONUSES
    IN DETAILS

    + COMPARISON
    + BUFF OVERRIDE
    + FINAL NOTES


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    PPM: proc per minute
    DPM: damage per minute
    HPM: heal per minute

    DMG: damage
    AP: attack power




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    USEFUL DATA & SOURCES:

    https://classic.wowhead.com/guides/classic-wow-stats-and-attributes-overview
    https://vanilla-wow.fandom.com/wiki/Attack_table
    https://vanilla-wow.fandom.com/wiki/Rage
    https://vanilla-wow.fandom.com/wiki/Block_value
    https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Procs_per_minute
    https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20034/enchant-weapon-crusader#comments
    https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20032/enchant-weapon-lifestealing#comments
    https://xpoff.com/


    The PPM rate of a given effect is based on auto-attacks ("white damage" attacks) made with that weapon. However, an effect on the main-hand weapon can proc more often than its PPM rating, as instant attacks (Sinister Strike, Overpower, etc.) are all assumed to be made with the main hand, and therefore can trigger the proc.


    From Allakhazam By Salerdar on 2005/05/25 (Patch 1.4.2)
    Subject: "Poor confused people"They intentionally made weapon enchant procs go off a time calculation, not off a weapon speed percent chance. If a weapon is slow enough, it will approach or meet 100% proc rate. This is why it's comical when people think enchants on two fast weapons is going to be some crazy powerful setup. In reality, two weapons with lifesteal is nice, but only because you have two, not because of the speed of the weapons.

    This is not Everquest. Blizzard did not want weapons with enchants to be too powerful by putting them on a 1hander as opposed to a 2hander.

    Edited, Wed May 25 11:30:25 2005



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    DISCLAIMERS: (PLEASE READ)


    THIS IS A COMMUNITY ANALYSIS AND COMPILATION.

    The point is NOT to say that THIS or THAT enchant sucks but rather create a precise comparison depending on the situation in a PVP scenario.

    *Every valuable data will be researched, verified and added to the post.
    WITH YOUR NAME ADDED TO THE CONTRIBUTORS LIST.*


    **Nothing here is set in stone. Everything is always subject to change, for better and more precise understanding of the subject.**



    YES, a better version of this will be made in the future, either by me or someone else, that's just how life goes.

    YES, I assume there is flaws and mistakes, this is why it is a community work that we can all review and improve with more precise information.


    WHY CRUSADER ON SHADOWFANG AND NOT 2-HANDERS: SEE SIDE NOTES AT THE END (Crusader on 2-handers VS Fiery)



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    WHY THIS??:
    Because this is THE hottest topic among Warriors in the 19 bracket. Many players would say you are BAD for even considering using Crusader in WSG...
    This is because they only see the rough numbers of Lifesteal being Higher without acknowledging the massive increase in Rage generation, stackable Block mitigation and Burst potential.
    Not to forget the overall value added to the team in the form of increased CC, Survivability, and ultimately DPS.


    This is just another modest attempt at comparing the 2 enchants, both placed on SHADOWFANG (2.7 atk speed), with (HOPEFULLY) everything taken into consideration.


    Lifesteal is a simple enchant: get resisted or not, deal 30 dmg, heal 30 hp and create a 60 health difference.
    On the other hand, CRUSADER for Warriors, is a much more complicated enchantment, with many more attributes added like block, rage generation, attack power, burst potential etc...
    Therefore, all these different elements have to be taken into consideration when trying to REALLY compare the 2 enchants in a PVP scenario.
    NOT ONLY DAMAGE, HEAL AND PPM.

    For Crusader, we also have to acknowledge DPS REDUCTION with block, dodge, parry, miss and armor. BUFF OVERRIDE is also taken into consideration at a rate of 50% to 75%.
    Buff OVERRIDE does not affect HEAL procs. It affects DPS/DPM, Rage generation and Block.
    CRITICAL STRIKES are NEVER factored in. They DO represent a great increase in DPS/DPM and RAGE generation. Resulting in more CC, survivability and ultimately DPS and team support.



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    CRUSADER
    proc rate (%) = weapon speed * 1.82
    SHADOWFANG (2.7 atk speed)
    1 Proc Per Minute
    (PPM)
    22.22 SWING per minute = 60/2.7 = 22.22
    4.5% Proc CHANCE ON HIT = (Weapon Speed) * PPM/60 = 2.7 * 1/60 = 4.5%


    BONUSES(See IN DETAILS below for details...):

    - 15 sec buff, cannot be dispelled, is refreshed on multi proc.

    - 5 block (38.46% increase for 15sec) assuming 100% block time (obviously not accurate)

    - 200 AP = ~100% increase from avg. base ~200AP = 105 dmg added during the buff duration on avg. Potential of 210-420 dmg added if buffed for 30sec to a minute.
    (assuming 50% dodges, block, parry, miss + armor and NO CRITICAL STRIKES)

    - Rage generation 22.22% to 44.44% increase on HIT (WITH dodges, block, parry, miss and armor acknowledged) MORE DATA NEEDED

    - 100 heal/proc on average (75-125) = 100 Heal Per Minute (assuming dodges,block,parry)

    - Max Burst potential when swapped to a 2-hander with Fiery. (read SIDE NOTES at the end)

    **CAN be blocked, parried or dodged **
    **CANNOT be resisted**



    IN DETAILS:

    15 sec buff.
    CANNOT BE RESISTED OR DISPELLED
    CAN BE PARRIED, DODGED, BLOCKED (assuming 50% reduced effectiveness, based on the Attack Table and players average offensive/defensive stats in the 19 bracket)
    CRITICAL STRIKES NOT ACCOUNTED FOR; Big bonus on DMG & Rage gen.


    75-125 HEAL on proc (average=100)
    Averaging 100 heal per min.
    NOTE: 1 Crusader HEAL = 3-4 Lifesteal HEALS

    100 STR = 200 ATTACK POWER (2 AP per STR point) ~100% increase from the average 200 AP warriors have at 19 (usually WITH shout).
    200 AP = avg. ~14 DPS*15 (buff duration) = 210 dmg added during the buff duration on avg.
    Divided by 2 to consider parries, dodges, blocks, misses and armor = 105-210 DMG avg during buff.
    CRITICAL STRIKES NOT ACCOUNTED FOR; Big bonus on DMG & Rage gen.

    100 STR = 5 BLOCKS with a shield (20 STR point for 1 block)
    Best 19 block shield has 13 Block (Arctic Buckler). +5 Block for 15sec = 38.4615% increase Block Value
    Averaging 150+ minimum dmg blocked from a single rogue in a minute.
    (assuming 1 melee attacker at a rate of 1 attack every 2 seconds /30 atk per min, most melee attackers in PVP will do more than that)
    (This is also to factor in 25% of NO BLOCK TIME, where you cannot block because of jumps, stuns etc.)
    NOTE: You can block while running with some small strafing manoeuvers.

    -RAGE GENERATION:
    NOTE:
    Rage is vital. It brings more CC, DPS and survivability. Both for yourself and your team.
    RAGE is usually the CLUTCH factor in a pvp scenario for a warrior, not DMG. Slows, interrupts, disarms and sunders is the bread & butter for warrior, not DPS (obviously)

    **MORE DATA NEEDED FOR RAGE GENERATION**

    -BONUS: Potential to proc Crusader and Swap to a 2-hander with Fiery for MAX burst dmg. AKA 300+ white hit crits (read SIDE NOTES at the end)



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    LIFESTEAL
    proc rate (%) = weapon speed * 7.87
    SHADOWFANG (2.7 atk speed)
    6 Proc Per Minute
    (PPM) Some say 4.5 BUT all updated sources are saying 6, and no sources with 4.5 can be found, we will then work with 6 PPM as a reference rather than 4.5)
    22.22 SWING per minute = 60/2.7 = 22.22
    27% Proc CHANCE ON HIT = (Weapon Speed) * PPM/60 = 2.7 * 6/60 = 27%

    NOTE: 27% proc chance on hit = 500% increase compared to Crusader (4.5%)


    BONUSES (See IN DETAILS below for details...):

    RESISTANCE applies on the PPM ??(Because its the proc that gets resisted?)
    That would make it a 5.7 PPM instead of 6 ??


    - 30 dmg/proc * 5.7 (PPM) = 171 Dmg Per Minute (assuming 5% resist)
    + +
    - 30 heal/proc * 5.7 (PPM) = 171 Heal Per Minute (assuming 5% resist)

    **CAN be resisted** (assuming a drastic 5% instead of an optimistic 3%)
    **CANNOT be blocked, parried, dodged or missed**



    IN DETAILS:

    -STEALS 30 health from target = 30 dmg & +30 heal on yourself = 60 health difference
    Averaging 180 heal per minute. Minus 9 to factor in 5% resist = 171-180 HPM

    -DEALS 30 dmg on proc = averaging 171 dmg per min. Minus 9 to factor in 5% resist = 171-180 DPM.

    -Averaging 342 Health difference over the course of a minute between you and your target (assuming non-stop attacking).



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    AVERAGE COMPARISON OF PPM RESULTS:

    NOTE: Why compare Lifesteals HPM with Crusaders HPM AND Block mitigation??
    HPM = adding X value in health points.
    Mitigation = nullifying X value in DMG BEFORE receiving the hit. ex: while getting hit by 50 base DMG points, you block 5, you then actually get hit for 45.
    That 10% blocked DMG represents Health you DO NOT LOSE, which means a added health value BEFORE every melee attack you suffer from. (from its original DMG value)
    Another good way to see this, is to reverse the scenario, as if you WOULD get hit for the TOTAL value every time AND THEN receive the added block value to your Health AFTER.
    Resulting in, again, added Health value.

    Before or after, in either cases, Mitigation = added Health value.
    In addition, the more melee attackers you have on yourself, the more BLOCKS you perform. Resulting in a MASSIVE increase in added Health value.

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    HPM + MITIGATION (will be 2 different sections soon)


    Lifesteal: 171 Heal Per Minute (RESIST ACKNOWLEDGED)
    Crusader: 100 Heal Per Minute (BLOCKED/MITIGATED DMG NOT ACCOUNTED FOR)

    +150 (avg. minimal block from 1 melee) = 250+ Heal & Mitigation Per Minute.
    (assuming only 1 melee attacker at a rate of 1 attack every 2 seconds /30 atk per min, most melee attackers in PVP will do more than that)
    2+ melee attackers = massive increase in Mitigation with Crusader over Lifesteal
    100 being the avg. HPM of Crusader, 150+ DMG blocked from a single melee represents a 150% increase in mitigation/heal PER melee attacker.


    ----------------------------------

    DPM

    Lifesteal: 605 Dmg Per Minute (RESIST ACKNOWLEDGED)
    Crusader: 420 Dmg Per Minute (BLOCK, DODGE, PARRY, MISS AND ARMOR ACKNOWLEDGED) + (CRITICAL STRIKES NOT ACCOUNTED FOR)


    Crusader Extra Bonuses:

    +Block = 38.46% increase from 13-18 block (+5) (Also averaging 150+ dmg blocked from a single melee in a minute)
    +Rage = 22.22% to 44.44% increase (CRITICAL STRIKES NOT ACCOUNTED FOR, ONLY BLOCK,DODGE,PARRY & MISS)
    +Burst potential with 2-hander swap
    for 15 seconds



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    WITH CRUSADER BUFF OVERRIDE (50%): assuming a 50% buff UPTIME during a minute instead of 100% (Healing on proc NOT affected by override)

    Crusader: 210 Dmg Per Minute (CRITICAL STRIKES NOT ACCOUNTED FOR)

    +Block = 19% increase
    +Rage = 11.11% to 22.22% increase (CRITICAL STRIKES NOT ACCOUNTED FOR, ONLY BLOCK,DODGE,PARRY & MISS)




    WITH CRUSADER BUFF OVERRIDE (75%): assuming a 75% buff UPTIME during a minute instead of 100% (Healing on proc NOT affected by override)

    Crusader: 315 Dmg Per Minute (CRITICAL STRIKES NOT ACCOUNTED FOR)

    +Block = 28.5% increase
    +Rage = 16.66% to 33.33% increase (CRITICAL STRIKES NOT ACCOUNTED FOR, ONLY BLOCK,DODGE,PARRY & MISS)



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    **UNDER CONSTRUCTION/EDITING**


    FINAL NOTES:
    (block, parry, dodge, miss, armor, resist, duration, target, team, game, buff uptime and everything else accounted for)
    READ IN DETAILS & COMPARISONS OF PPM RESULTS

    500% INCREASED PROCS on Lifesteal Compared to Crusader


    -CRUSADER
    RAGE: Adds more CC, DPS and survivability. Both for yourself and your team. MORE DATA NEEDED
    BURST: The swap burst potential is very nice to have in the tool box, for when you can/want to swap to a 2-hander with fiery.
    These enchants/weapons setup is also the highest burst potential you can reach. (read SIDE NOTES at the end)
    HEAL/BLOCK: When being focused by 3+ melee attacker, Crusader has a massive increase in Blocked DMG.
    DMG: (under construction)

    -LIFESTEAL
    DMG: Is the better straight damage enchant compared to Crusader.
    HEAL: (under construction)


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    REMINDER:

    THIS IS A COMMUNITY ANALYSIS AND COMPILATION.

    The point is NOT to say that THIS or THAT enchant sucks but rather create a precise comparison depending on the situation in a PVP scenario.

    *Every valuable data will be researched, verified and added to the post.
    WITH YOUR NAME ADDED TO THE CONTRIBUTORS LIST.*


    **IN CONSTRUCTION/EDITING** **IN CONSTRUCTION/EDITING**
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
  2. E T Phone Gnome

    E T Phone Gnome Member

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    Some notes:
    - PPM doesn't work like you described. Playing a single game with LS or Cru should give you enough info that your PPM's are far off. The flaw in your math is that you calculated the Proc Chance on Hit and used it for PPM. (Relatively speaking this doesn't affect your broad conclusions, but your numbers are way too big anyway).
    - Block doesn't work like you described. There's a fatal flaw in your math that you seem to assume every incoming attack is reduced by Block Value. Reality is that Block Value only applies on Blocked attacks. Most Warrior's have 5% block. You can therefore multiply your 'Block Mitigation' by 0.05 and conclude that Crusader is not nearly as good as you thought. (Even if you spam Shield Block, you will never get close to the numbers you currently use).
    - Most importantly, the only 'direct effect' of Crusader is the Heal. The damage buff you get afterwards isn't a 'direct effect' because you have yet to apply the damage. In reality, within these 15 seconds you will often be CC'd or there will be no target within Range. This results in most of the damage gain from Crusader being much smaller in any real situation.

    There's a couple of other smaller flaws in your post, but these three points above should give you enough information to work out that Crusader is a fairly bad enchant and can't really hope to compare to either LS or Fiery.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
  3. OP
    Floot

    Floot New Member

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    Thanks for your valuable critic! I will research and add all of this as best I can ASAP! Please list every possible flaws, so we can all learn and improve!
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 11, 2020, Original Post Date: Oct 11, 2020 ---
    Reminder to anyone interested (everything taken from original post):

    THIS IS A COMMUNITY ANALYSIS AND COMPILATION.

    The point is NOT to say that THIS or THAT enchant sucks but rather create a precise comparison depending on the situation in a PVP scenario.

    *Every valuable data will be researched, verified and added to the post.
    WITH YOUR NAME ADDED TO THE CONTRIBUTORS LIST.*


    YES, I assume there is flaws and mistakes, this is why it is a community work that we can all review and improve with more precise information.

    **Nothing here is set in stone. Everything is always subject to change, for better and more precise understanding of the subject.**

    Unfortunately, this is NOT a one man job. I do not assume I can crack the code by myself, but this is my humble contribution to the matter. I encourage anyone interested to publish more & more testing and analysis.
     
  4. E T Phone Gnome

    E T Phone Gnome Member

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    Well, I'd opt for something smaller and simpler, like this:
    ---------------------------------------
    Crusader (1PPM), 100x2/14x15 = 214
    214x0.75x0.75 = 120 (Miss/Dodge/Parry/Block & Armor)
    120x0.666 = 80 (Application Time/Overwrite Cutoff)
    80x0.9+160x0.1 = 88 (10% Crit Chance)
    ((((15x(70+200/14*2.7*0.5))/(4x68.84)+(3.5x2.7/2))-((15x70)/(4x68.84)+(3.5x2.7/2)))x(15/2.7)x0.9 + (((15x(140+200/14*2.7*0.5))/(4x68.84)+(3.5x2.7/2))-((15x140)/(4x68.84)+(3.5x2.7/2)))x(15/2.7)x0.1)x5 = 29 Bonus Damage from Rage
    Total Damage = 117, Heal = 100, Block 10x0.05x5 = 2.5
    Total Gain = 219.5

    LS (4.5 PPM), 135 DMG & Heal x 0.95 = 128.25
    Total Gain = 256.5

    Fiery (6 PPM), 240 x 0.95 = 228
    Total Gain = 228
    --------------------------------------------

    Assumptions:
    Cru has 1PPM, LS has 4.5, Fiery has 6. (The only playtesting source on LS 4.5 PPM sadly went down, if you go by 6 PPM there isn't really any competition though - so I went with 4.5 anyway.)
    Enemy has 25% combined Dodge/Parry/Block/(Miss)
    Enemy has 25% Damage reduction from Armor
    Enemy has 5% Resistance vs Fire and Shadow Spells.
    33% of Cru damage is lost due to overwrites and being unable to hit something.
    Average hit (without Crusader) deals 70 damage.
    Warrior has 10% Crit Chance.
    1 Rage translates into 5 extra damage (worked out from an earlier doc).

    And then I repeat again I find it highly optimistic to assume you can utilize 66% (10 seconds) of the Crusader uptime, so I don't really see any scenario brighter than this. Maybe if you spam a lot of Overpowers you can get some extra damage out, but eh. Main other flaws in your previous post seem to be the Rage generation and Crit not being accounted for, or being accounted for in a questionable way. That said, above example contains rough estimates based on made assumptions to give a broad overview - through playtesting it could be confirmed or deconfirmed.

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  5. OP
    Floot

    Floot New Member

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    Thank you very much sir! Everything will be reviewed and added with your name in the contributors list ASAP ! :)
     
  6. ExudeCans

    ExudeCans Grandfathered

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    Oh this thread again
     

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