Rusks
Legend
i actually like it idk hope it stays
10-19 The Official Twink Cup 2016 Thread
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anatomyx
Legend
Just a few things I'd like to mention, some good and some bad.
1. Allowing 3 Druids and 3 Monks:
I understand what was going on with this decision; it can potentially open up a few different comps which is "better" from a viewers perspective and in theory, the tournament as a whole. However, the fact that this decision was made seemingly randomly, especially without contacting representatives from all teams participating in the TC is a TERRIBLE move by the management. I understand that some people in the community may not get along with each other, but blatantly excluding specific teams/representatives from discussions is pathetic. The Twink Cup is at it's core a community run tournament, and if you exclude certain community members for no real reason, it shows an obvious bias from the staff and reflects badly on the Twink Cup as a whole.
Back on topic, attempting to force a meta change (whether it will or will not work) this close to the tournament can put some teams in a very bad spot. Not every team has the means to play and get practices games in every weekend. If there is a meta shift and teams are unable to get adequate practice in a new meta, they are basically getting screwed over with no real fault of their own. It's simply not fair, and this change should be removed.
2. Discord:
There's a good and bad side to this one. As someone who uses Discord frequently in a different gaming community, I can vouch for it being a good communication program, much better than Curse or any other alternative in my opinion.
Last year, my team (jcm) had major issues staying in touch with tournament management. As the person leading jcm on tournament weekend, it was ridiculously frustrating when I had to scramble around for peoples battletags or Curse IDs to get information when my team was sitting around for 8+ hours on the final night, and even then still not getting responses from people involved. With Discord, everyone will be in one place, and that will make it much easier to contact people. I assume (and hope) this change was made in part because of issues such as this, and if so I'm glad you guys took the initiative to make contacting everyone easier. This is a great change, props for this one.
However, I don't agree with tournament staff randomly hopping into team calls. I understand that the stream will be delayed and it will bring more "hype" to viewers, but regardless, it can potentially give away team strategies in certain situations. It can also potentially lead to cheating, such as a staff member joining a team call, then quickly whispering a member of the other team what their opponent is planning. Since the tournament staff has a lot of ties to different teams, this is something that people will worry about if staff is allowed to freely jump into any teams call mid game, so I think this idea should be reconsidered.
3. Enchants:
Not going to go into too much detail here because there's been a ton of arguments throughout the thread, but my personal opinion is that all grandfathered enchants, including 13 sp, head enchants, etc. should be banned. The vast majority of players do not have them, so allowing things like this will only lead to players doing shady things in an attempt to obtain them. It's a much more fair and easy solution to remove them outright instead of allowing a grey area.
1. Allowing 3 Druids and 3 Monks:
I understand what was going on with this decision; it can potentially open up a few different comps which is "better" from a viewers perspective and in theory, the tournament as a whole. However, the fact that this decision was made seemingly randomly, especially without contacting representatives from all teams participating in the TC is a TERRIBLE move by the management. I understand that some people in the community may not get along with each other, but blatantly excluding specific teams/representatives from discussions is pathetic. The Twink Cup is at it's core a community run tournament, and if you exclude certain community members for no real reason, it shows an obvious bias from the staff and reflects badly on the Twink Cup as a whole.
Back on topic, attempting to force a meta change (whether it will or will not work) this close to the tournament can put some teams in a very bad spot. Not every team has the means to play and get practices games in every weekend. If there is a meta shift and teams are unable to get adequate practice in a new meta, they are basically getting screwed over with no real fault of their own. It's simply not fair, and this change should be removed.
2. Discord:
There's a good and bad side to this one. As someone who uses Discord frequently in a different gaming community, I can vouch for it being a good communication program, much better than Curse or any other alternative in my opinion.
Last year, my team (jcm) had major issues staying in touch with tournament management. As the person leading jcm on tournament weekend, it was ridiculously frustrating when I had to scramble around for peoples battletags or Curse IDs to get information when my team was sitting around for 8+ hours on the final night, and even then still not getting responses from people involved. With Discord, everyone will be in one place, and that will make it much easier to contact people. I assume (and hope) this change was made in part because of issues such as this, and if so I'm glad you guys took the initiative to make contacting everyone easier. This is a great change, props for this one.
However, I don't agree with tournament staff randomly hopping into team calls. I understand that the stream will be delayed and it will bring more "hype" to viewers, but regardless, it can potentially give away team strategies in certain situations. It can also potentially lead to cheating, such as a staff member joining a team call, then quickly whispering a member of the other team what their opponent is planning. Since the tournament staff has a lot of ties to different teams, this is something that people will worry about if staff is allowed to freely jump into any teams call mid game, so I think this idea should be reconsidered.
3. Enchants:
Not going to go into too much detail here because there's been a ton of arguments throughout the thread, but my personal opinion is that all grandfathered enchants, including 13 sp, head enchants, etc. should be banned. The vast majority of players do not have them, so allowing things like this will only lead to players doing shady things in an attempt to obtain them. It's a much more fair and easy solution to remove them outright instead of allowing a grey area.
Activate
Legend
Requiring access to private communications is completely out of line. Player are directed to change their playstyle and disrupt their stream of thought as a team for a minor bonus to the stream image. This an infringement on private friendships and years of progress as an individual and team. It opens many doors for foul play. Participants come well before viewers.
Conq
Guest
Not sure why people here think they are any different from others who play in tournaments.
Maineack
Legend
"Not sure why people here think they are any different from others who play in tournaments." are you referring to the fact people are expressing there opinions? I believe it would be UN realistic for you who just recently took this tournament from its owner and appointed a group of people to make all the rules with 3/7 on one team and no representatives from two teams to expect anything else. every thing leading up to this was discussed in a group discussion. People had voices and were herd. now people are being told major changes with little time to prepare prior to this event. I do think it is too late the damage may have been done and you may not see some familiar faces playing this year after this. My personal opinion on the choices made have no impact so i wont waste my breath but you must appease the mob to run Rome.
Conq
Guest
I'm referring to the discord issue, it's not a mob, its a few vocal folks spamming a thread. I've not witnessed any damage.
There is more than enough time to prepare.
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anatomyx
Legend
The difference with the Discord issue with us and major tournaments in other games is that our tournament is being run by members of the community who are very involved with different teams participating, many whom are even playing in the cup this year. As I mentioned, there is potential for foul play and I think that is the thing people are most worried about.
You cannot compare the TC to stuff like League tournaments, it just doesn't work. The 19 bracket is not an esport with thousands of people behind it.
Cheesetoast
Legend
I can understand why people are frustrated.
Where has Myrm's previous post gone? As I recall, it states that the rules committee would in part consist of all the team leaders. Or at least that they would be present in some way, or their opinions be considered when affirming the rules. This, to my understanding, was set in place so that any indication of bias might be dissolved.
I understand this tourney has surpassed Myrm's post and you have put a tremendous amount of effort and time into revitalising it, but communities expectations are at play. You can expect that there will be frustrated people when there is such shifts in (what is widely considered to be) a community run tournament. It is fair for community members to assume, because the tournament has seen a change in committee, and some of the previous Twink Cup rules have been altered (whether out of deep consideration for the meta or not), that there is the possibility of a bias. This is why Myrm introduced the rule that all team leaders would have an involvement or a place in the rule committee.
The seven (or three people? It sounds like Blueprint wasn't aware of some of the rules) that you have stated only make up one part of the community. Find some way of opening the rule discussion to the Team leaders or the community or you will continue to feel the burn long after the tournament has subsided.
I consider this event to be better than a "professional gaming tournament" like Gamer's League because of the community involvement. I feel you for taking the reigns, in lots of ways that you have considerately done justice to the Myrm's tournament. Just don't squander what he started, by changing things up without fully consulting the people who are playing it or the people you are running it for
Where has Myrm's previous post gone? As I recall, it states that the rules committee would in part consist of all the team leaders. Or at least that they would be present in some way, or their opinions be considered when affirming the rules. This, to my understanding, was set in place so that any indication of bias might be dissolved.
I understand this tourney has surpassed Myrm's post and you have put a tremendous amount of effort and time into revitalising it, but communities expectations are at play. You can expect that there will be frustrated people when there is such shifts in (what is widely considered to be) a community run tournament. It is fair for community members to assume, because the tournament has seen a change in committee, and some of the previous Twink Cup rules have been altered (whether out of deep consideration for the meta or not), that there is the possibility of a bias. This is why Myrm introduced the rule that all team leaders would have an involvement or a place in the rule committee.
The seven (or three people? It sounds like Blueprint wasn't aware of some of the rules) that you have stated only make up one part of the community. Find some way of opening the rule discussion to the Team leaders or the community or you will continue to feel the burn long after the tournament has subsided.
I consider this event to be better than a "professional gaming tournament" like Gamer's League because of the community involvement. I feel you for taking the reigns, in lots of ways that you have considerately done justice to the Myrm's tournament. Just don't squander what he started, by changing things up without fully consulting the people who are playing it or the people you are running it for
Conq
Guest
Because of the direction the TC was going as of two weeks ago we decided it was necessary to move forward with some significant changes to the structure and organization, so we have phased out some of the other TC posts to avoid confusion. We are listening to peoples opinions and reading every comment, everything will be reviewed with the council next time we meet, as planned.
Cheesetoast
Legend
I'm just not sure why you didn't include the team leaders in the rules committee
Conq
Guest
We considered people from every team, in the end we decided to go with those we thought would offer unique perspectives, non-bias judgement, and constructive input, nothing against other teams but having someone from each team sounds nice, yet it may not necessarily be the best option for the degree of quality we intend to bring to the table.
lindenkron
OG
Let me start off by saying, I have no roots in this community that's around today seeing as I've not twinked for somewhere along the lines of 6 years. People have a different perspective of what twinking is, than back then, and I quite honestly don't fit in with peoples way of thinking these days. It also puts me in a position where I don't care about any of this, outside of the fact that Blackout is a long term (11 years~) friend and I wanted to help out with something that was important to him, that he felt needed doing. And well.. I guess I'm just a sucker.
I'll bold this. People don't seem to realize the hours put in this, literally a full time job.
No. You can't. Because it's easy to write a post saying you hate this and that - but how about you put together your own Twink Cup, with all that comes with it (and trust me, it's way more than I'd even imagine). Keep up the quality, make sure everything runs smoothy (audio, camera, casters, promotion, donations, addons(fixing, getting in touch with people, testing - making sure it works, communicating), software(fixing same as with the addon, a ton of back and forth), communication, discussions/rulings, artwork, stream channels, paypal, every single detail that could possibly be abused, animations, preparations for various possible unforeseen events, communication with various parts of the "team", recruiting, teaching/training people to do various things such as broadcasting/commentating and much much more that I can't even think of - just for the sake of quality) and at the same time trying to please everyone.
I'll bold this. People don't seem to realize the hours put in this, literally a full time job.
No one minds people expressing their opinions. Everyone's entitled to constructed feedback and voicing their opinions. If you've ever organized anything, you'd realize that hearing where people stand on something to try and make adjustment you deem fit, is very handy. That doesn't mean you always will or agree, but it's nice to know where some people stand (People that are happy with a situation rarely expresses themselves).
Please, Maineack. Don't start fooling yourself by remembering history poorly. Why am I here? Because there was 25 people sitting in a Curse Call jerking off to each-other without anything happening. We wouldn't be in this situation in the first place if, he who cannot be named, was around to take control of things and make sure things were done. We did something. And are actively doing something.
I don't know anyone around here - only from reputation and talking to people after we sat down and had a chat. The 7 people in this group all seem more than capable, intelligent and smart, of giving pros and cons on situations. It doesn't matter how many are on the same team, in case a ruling comes down to the affected team, 2 steps out and it becomes a 5 man "council" or whatever you wish to call it. You all acts as if we haven't thought things through.
Yes, and how far did that get you? As mentioned before, in a never-ending debate with a whole lot of "this and that should be done" - then arguing about the pros and cons for 2 hours, only for nothing to get done. Again, why am I here?. If things were going so unbelievably well, then why the f*** am I here?
To be quite honest, people threatening to not participate is alright with me. If minor things like 13 SP or certain inconveniences are enough for people to stay off a tournament that might actually be done right for once (unlike the shitfest that was 2015), then it's their loss and the negative impact they have on their community's loss (again one I'm not a part of). You can't please everyone, it's something very apparent - and if everyone let themselves get bullied around, then nothing would ever happen. Can you imagine the amount of changes Blizzard would have to do, if they had to comply with every small minded pleb that took 1 minute to write a post of why he hates a specific thing?
No. You can't. Because it's easy to write a post saying you hate this and that - but how about you put together your own Twink Cup, with all that comes with it (and trust me, it's way more than I'd even imagine). Keep up the quality, make sure everything runs smoothy (audio, camera, casters, promotion, donations, addons(fixing, getting in touch with people, testing - making sure it works, communicating), software(fixing same as with the addon, a ton of back and forth), communication, discussions/rulings, artwork, stream channels, paypal, every single detail that could possibly be abused, animations, preparations for various possible unforeseen events, communication with various parts of the "team", recruiting, teaching/training people to do various things such as broadcasting/commentating and much much more that I can't even think of - just for the sake of quality) and at the same time trying to please everyone.
People don't know how much time and effort is put into this, and they have the audacity - the NERVE to come in here and post retarded small minded idiotic 30 second posts like "your idiiots"
Have some respect and common sense - or do it yourselves.
Have some respect and common sense - or do it yourselves.
Mvq
2016 TC Champion
Using the arguement "We spend a lot of time, so you can't judge us." seems extremely weak.
You can spend 30 days to pile up a huge tower of shit, and even tho you spend 30 days, it's still shit.
anatomyx
Legend
news flash, if you piss enough people off you won't have a tournament
we're all grateful that you guys are taking the reigns, but if you're doing it in such a way that upsets the community at large then the community will not participate
Conq
Guest
Lets be realistic, its not shit, theres a few people that are letting their emotions take control of their self-expression, and if teams start withdrawing than their just wont be a tournament, that's not on us, but honestly its no where near that point, and it wont be, if it does get to that point than I guess myself, linden, and blackout will suddenly have a lot more free time, not our loss.
lindenkron
OG
Well maybe people in this community need to be less offended over such minor details. Everyone is acting as if their mother just got physically assaulted - instead of entering a constructive response in which they relay their dis concerns. And it's not a problem with the many, I already replied this to Maineak. It's a few people doing massive outcrys, getting everyone rattled up. Not saying there isn't details to be discussed or possibly changed, but it REALLY isn't as big as drama queens make it out to be. I guess 19s just want drama for drama's sake? We'll that attitude will end in a no twink cup, which I guess is for the benefit of everyone, right?
I never said people couldn't have constructive feedback. It's peoples attitude that's an issue. I never said the quotation above, don't you have the nerve to falsely put words in my mouth - I know you're unhappy with the video, but leave it at that.
Is it your firm believe, that this Twink Cup will be shit if NWL hosts it MVQ? If not then the fact that you bother replying here with useless posts like that just an expression of your incompetence.
Mvq
2016 TC Champion
Never said it'll be shit.
I'm just stating that the arguement "we spend a lot of time on it" holds no value.
lindenkron
OG
If you don't wish to bring solutions or anything valuable to this thread, then for the sake of everyone please choose the exit. I appreciate the time you put into making the video, and you've been credited accordingly as your video inspired me to the style of which the final product was presented.Never said it'll be shit.
I'm just stating that the arguement "we spend a lot of time on it" holds no value.
And I do appreciate that.
But please don't sit around just waiting to make snide comments, it's worthless, useless and a waste of everyone's time.
Mvq
2016 TC Champion
If you're basing a discussion on an arguement that holds no value then the entire discussion will hold no value.
Just making sure that doesn't happen.
Not sure why you're bringing up the video stuff. I don't mind that my video wasn't used. Not at all.
Darkchewie
2014 & 2015 TC Champion
Eenie, meenie, minie, mo.
Every team should have had representation, it doesn't take a genius to figure that out. You had to have tried really hard to goof that up.
Bravo.
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