Twink Charter - Lets get this done

Dorigon said:

There are too many steps now. I amassed a collection of 17 infractions and warnings before getting a temporary ban a year ago. The ban itself was petty, as were the majority of warnings and infractions, but it still shows how ineffectively the system has been used.

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That's not the system's fault, though.

Mocha said:

Respect:

I don't care how strict the CoC is. All I care about is that moderators need to respect what the CoC says. Not completely disregard it on a daily basis. Why would a community follow the CoC if the moderators don't take it seriously? If you do x, you get y. If the CoC reads "if you do x, you get y." and if only one moderator is moderating the way it's written, the entire site won't give a fuck about what the CoC says because clearly the moderators don't either.

Consistency:

Also, results should not vary from moderator to moderator. If the CoC reads "if you do x, you get y." then no matter which moderator reads the report, they should get y. It shouldn't be a luck of the draw on which moderator reads the report. There shouldn't be a different result on the same offenses because the reports were received by two separate moderators. Again, I don't care for how strict the CoC is... all I want is consistency with its moderation.

Special Treatment:

Members should not receive special treatment no matter whom they are. The argument of "unban x because he's important" is the most biased corruption there could be. Why should x be unbanned because he's "important" when y should remain banned because his name isn't as large? The CoC needs to apply to every member on the site equally. Even if you're friends with the offender, they need to be held at the same standard.

Momentum:

Bans should only be given when more moderators agree to it or if there's a direct IP infringement. This is going unchanged as this has always been the case. The staff chat ban reasoning thread should always be updated as well.

Reports:

Reports need to be handled by all moderators. There shouldn't be 8 moderators and only one answering reports.

Pruning:

The TI staff shouldn't be so large if there's no purpose for having such an army of a staff. The number of moderators should directly reflect the atmosphere of the CoC and each staff member should pull their weight in some way or another. If you have 8 moderators and no CoC, well that just comes off as an admin giving his friends a special title. I guess he's free to do so, but that's not something that has happened in the past and isn't something that should happen either. In times where people are extra angsty, there should be more staff members than in times when people are chill and activity is low. You don't need 8 moderators to handle the 3 reports of "close my thread" or "move my thread" and that's about all that is probably being made right now.

Standard:

@Broken Myrm Superstylin should all vocally agree on what standard they want to set the community on and their opinions should all be equal. Sure, Myrm bought the site, but Broken and Superstylin should be held no lower than Myrm. Those three should decide on if they want swearing / bashing or if they want to cut down on stuff like that. I know the previous admin put a high value in content and if a thread did not aid in the creation or relay of information, it was not to be made simple as that. If a post did not aid in discussion or bring new information or debate, it was simply spamming the site with 0 content and removed.

My Opinion:

Now my opinions on the standard are pretty simple and have gone unchanged since 2010. I don't like seeing important content being buried on the daily because some kid wants to show off his muscles instead or some kids want to post @ threads with youtube videos or some ms paint pictures. That is bullshit. Content should be preserved and rewarded. People should WANT to contribute information to develop the community and the standard that the admins desire should reflect this. Content should be valued higher than activity. TI shouldn't be some lounge to just chat when you're bored, it should be a valuable information resource. New twinks should be able to find TI and should WANT to join the community. They should be able to approach the developed community with questions and should receive the answers they're looking for. This site has NEVER been as cluttered and inefficient as it is now. The only thing a new member will learn from visiting this site consistently for a week is that people are assholes. Unless they ask for information, they will absolutely never even come across it. Hell, most of them don't even see the guides section / stickied threads because there's just too much clutter for them to click on instead.

I know as a community the majority of the users left on this site get more enjoyment in calling someone a faggot cunt to their face than they would enjoy helping a new member gear up. With that being said, most of the constructive users of the site are long gone so my opinions are heavily unfavored to this remaining community. I'm not going to let that stop me from vocalizing my opinion as I still believe that growth as a community should be much desired and the site in its current status is completely hindering on that. My opinions may be "wrong" to the current community, but I do believe my goal of aiming for content over bloat is in the right. Sadly, more people would be more interested in vocally going against me even when they agree with the content in my posts. I'm not going to let that stop me from voicing my opinions and continuing to aim for my goal. Everyone is free to express their opinions on the new CoC.

Twink Cup should be a different website. TI should reintroduce account sales / private server section.

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While these points are all very great points many of them may not work for TI. Simply because many of TI members are noncorming pukes. And many of them do not like barriers or have never had barriers placed around them. They have no concept of "rules" in society. At least in virtual society at the very minimum.

/cheers

Dorigon said:

There are too many steps now. I amassed a collection of 17 infractions and warnings before getting a temporary ban a year ago. The ban itself was petty, as were the majority of warnings and infractions, but it still shows how ineffectively the system has been used.

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While I got banned with zero infractions and no explanation...
Later on, I "heard" it was because I was the " most reported person on TI". Members could just band together and report a post simply because they did not like it and get someone banned. Not because they broke the CoC. Which is fine. That would proves that people can show cohesiveness against against a common "enemy" even when they themselves "fight".
This is all part of the "fabric" of this site that makes it such a special and interesting subject.

/cheers

Arkant said:

You don't need a specific amount of posts to spam in that section, though.

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change it then xd

So I just sent a message to Broken about this before I stumbled on this thread, not sure if anyone else has to deal with this but I find it kind of funny and sad at the same time...

I understand I've attracted a lot of unnecessary attention here, even though I'd say my recent posts have been quite mild compared to others in the past, and I've accumulated quite a following of haters and trolls that seemingly live to shit post me in every thread. Some of them have apologized and tried to make amends, most just hate my guts and clearly have no intention of changing their habits to spam me daily with quotes to every comment I make to try and get a negative response... I had 14 replies from this 1 person this morning and it's just escalating over the past week or so. I'm trying to have it dealt with by a moderator so for the sake of keeping this thread on topic I'm not calling anyone out but this isn't even the first person to shit post spam me in the past month.



I don't mind being targeted by the various trolls, children and people with less than average intelligence who roam the forums but I really don't think it should be allowed because it's just bad for business. If you want to have a respectable place for people to come would you let drunks sleep on the benches with newspapers for blankets and harass people that just want to enjoy themselves? I'm not saying that's how everyone on here is but it only takes 1 person to ruin something, and in this case there's definitely more than one person at fault.

So anyways... props to you if you're a positive influence on the community because it seems there's very few who are, truth be told I don't consider myself a shining example of good behavior or anything but I don't go shit posting on positive threads made by people I might dislike just to be petty and spiteful. Not pointing any fingers or complaining about other people just trying to get my opinion out there... but in my opinion moderators definitely need to enforce the rules with confidence instead of just letting the community walk all over them to the point that all respect for authority is lost...

[MENTION=25779]Trialkiller[/MENTION] Takes two to tango. The best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them. My guess is, you either initiated that contact or perpetuated it. Either way, you only have yourself to blame. I suggest you ignore them and eventually they will go away.
Take this thread for instance.
http://www.twinkinfo.com/forums/f20/rare-twinkinfo-thread-allybeboba-exposed-73839/
Certainly a troll thread. I made one small funny comment in it, otherwise I am ignoring it. Did no even bother reporting it. It is not my style. He was just having some harmless fun at my expense. No big deal. It will eventually go away.

/cheers

Trialkiller said:

I understand I've attracted a lot of unnecessary attention here, even though I'd say my recent posts have been quite mild compared to others in the past, and I've accumulated quite a following of haters and trolls that seemingly live to shit post me in every thread.

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Lol so within 20 minutes of my post I've already had two replies saying the same thing... and I already acknowledged that I brought this on myself. Please keep your social justice comments to yourselves, I've been clear with every post I've made on this topic that I don't question why people decide to shit post and troll me. Thanks for your concern
[MENTION=19976]Alley[/MENTION]beboba this is what I'm talking about when I say you make useless and unnecessary comments.

Barbarous said:

change it then xd

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But how are all the new twinks meant to introduce themselves then without spamming threads =^]

make TI like it was when shane was the owner, just a little bit less strict

madhombre said:

make TI like it was when shane was the owner, just a little bit less strict

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Just as Mocha stated. You get an infraction. It lasts so long. Hopefully the person will calm down a bit with the first infraction. Get a second fraction while your other one is still in effect you get a certain amount of time in the corner( a few hours), third ( even more time), fourth ( even more) etc. eventually you will work you way up to where you can't ever log in. Or if you a good little TI member you can get your infractions removed in due time.
The real problem is getting the moderators to all be the exact same and to not play favorites. And that may be tough, given the maturity level of TI's membership. Maturity is not a reflection of age BTW.

/cheers

Despite people claiming I'm some infamous shit poster / troll I've yet to receive any warnings or infractions... keep that in mind, guys. It's really not hard to follow the rules and if you're someone that's getting banned and repeatedly warned you can easily change your habits and avoid that sort of action from moderators.

I really like Yde's draft. It has a friendly but assertive tone, and contains all the important elements. It gives the mods a proper amount of discretion/options to make decisions based on circumstances/severity of the case. It also allows for decisions to be transparent. In regards to point V, I don't see the problem with double posting? In regards to point VIII, I think you need to work on your encouraged insults list, [MENTION=10336]Yde[/MENTION].

[MENTION=25779]Trialkiller[/MENTION]
@Allybeboa

I think us 3 may be the most celebrity TI members on here and we have so many fans over here trying to get our attention!


Also, it can be pretty fucking hard to get an infraction and pretty much always has been. In order to get a ban, you need to actively share your account or create a new one or accumulate a ton of infractions, in order to get an infraction, you have to post something that someone finds offensive and reports, in order to receive action for that it needs to actually be a stride too far. Infractions ARE warnings in and of themselves. They time out. Warnings are warnings for warnings and I have never thought they were effective at all. Some people have proven themselves incapable of following community guidelines and have banned themselves time and time again. If you get an infraction, definitely don't go off on the mod calling him a thirsty cock goblin or something. Do you honestly think the mod is going to go "SORRY YOU'RE RIGHT HERE LET ME REVERSE THAT INFRACTION OMG IM SORRY"


Idiots.


If you receive an infraction on TI, chances are you were teasing for them in one way or another. If you receive multiple infractions, you definitely were.


Funny story: Back in WOTLK when I was 17 or something I posted something along the lines of "Enti's damage is retarded" and received an infraction from Kore for using the word retarded. I laughed, copy and pasted his infraction message to me and made a new thread saying "Omg I just got an infraction from kore for posting "Enti's damage is retarded"". My thread was locked, I received a second infraction and the "do not discuss moderator's actions taken on a TI member's account on the forums" clause was added to the CoC.


I received one other infraction from Eliot a few months later for saying "f2p games are the most horrible trash bag games I've ever experienced in my life. People will literally not even notice a flag drop right in front of their face and click it even if they had 2 minutes to do so."


After that I learned not to be a dick on TI or you'll get infractions and bans. AAAAanddddd I've never had a single problem with following the CoC ever since. I've never received any infractions, bans, warnings or anything because I stopped flaming, swearing at people, and I followed the CoC. When I wrote a post, I asked myself "is my post respectful? Is it constructive? Does it have friendly air?" I taught myself how to censor myself. Especially with how in text, it takes time to send a response. There's 0 excuse for posting a heated statement.


I then posted threads on subjects that I was passionate about (growth in the community as opposed to consolidation and competition), was nominated the first MVP on TI, shortly after applied for mod, joined and when the staff was asked to draft up a CoC, I wrote up my best attempt and ended up being the longest lasting TI staff member on the site (even stepped down and was asked to return again).


So long story short, if people stop being complete pricks to others on the site (especially staff members with the fuck the mods @mod threads) chances are they wouldn't have ever received an infraction or a ban. Some of them could have been admins, moderators, bracket managers today. Bans have always needed to be explained in staff chat in order for them to not be overturned. If you sit here and fuck with the staff who's tasked with the thankless job of cleaning up the extra clutter on the site, you're going to paint a target on your own back.


Dory is the perfect example of using the site while understanding the CoC. He had like 16 infractions or something for trolling without a single ban. He wouldn't sit here and write @ fuck the mod posts etc. He was extremely sly and far too intelligent to make that immature mistake... Most importantly he understood the CoC so he knew how to get away with doing whatever he wanted. I'd say 99% of the people whom have received infractions / bans on the site have never once read the CoC despite it being linked thousands of times all over the site and in signatures. 99% of issues could have been avoided if someone didn't simply take action to be a dick and cause problems for others. I wouldn't have been asked to return as mod if Stubs didn't post Valencia's IRL pictures all over the site (funny thing, stubs banned himself again after my return to moderator and definitely was the one to blow up bitching at me and insulting me after an initial infraction)


@ Trial / Ally you guys are fine. People love to hate at you guys because you're some of the few remaining on this site whom value content over drama. The site doesn't need drama to be effective and efficient, infant drama hinders the ability for the site to be practical and a useful resource. You don't give a fuck about being more epeen jacked than anyone else and you guys play the game for fun, use the forums to enhance your fun in playing the game, and you guys are constructive community members. You're going to draw a lot of attention in being one of the few candles in the dark. Don't let anyone stop you from voicing your opinions, stilling your hand in fighting for your cause. People can try to dismiss you and write you off as "lost" or "irrelevant" or whatever, but just remember that the majority of the twink community values growth and content over epeening drama. They've been chased away from the site, but if they were still on the site, our (generally coinciding) opinions would be with a greater support.


You're some of the few single voices against a community of chaotic elitists with 0 fathom of respect, courtesy, or valuable contribution. You're one of the few whom stick to their passions and don't disband them to fit in like most voices on here whom have completely changed tides due to popular opinions swinging in different directions due to popular / trendy opinions. 90% of the great community members that I know in game never use this site and haven't for years.


Just a few words, you guys keep doing your thing <3

Trialkiller said:

Lol so within 20 minutes of my post I've already had two replies saying the same thing... and I already acknowledged that I brought this on myself. Please keep your social justice comments to yourselves, I've been clear with every post I've made on this topic that I don't question why people decide to shit post and troll me. Thanks for your concern
Alleybeboba this is what I'm talking about when I say you make useless and unnecessary comments.

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Jesus.Fuck.

You come on here to whine about being a troll-target, and then you have the absolute fucking audacity to tell others to "keep their comments to themselves".

I understand the majority of people can't read past a paragraph before their ADHD sets in and they resort to shit posting on the most interesting thing their short attention span picked up, trust me. I don't know how many times I'll have to say it but I'm starting to think I'll have to put it in my signature so these kids stop bringing it up.

I understand that I'm not always the most likable person on the forums, frankly I could care less if you think I suck in game or want to punch me in the throat IRL because that's your issue, I understand that I've provoked a lot of people with my words / "actions" and I'm not surprised when I get a whole page of spam from one person who wants me to "get out of chiraq's house"... but people are still missing the point I'm trying to make, it shouldn't matter who the target is for trolls because it's just unnecessary shit being kicked up where it doesn't belong. They don't allow incessant trolling or personal attacks / name calling on any other "legitimate" forum, I know TwinkInfo is understaffed but Blizzard isn't going to respect or acknowledge a site that freely allows idiots to do and say whatever they want.

Just my opinion, inb4 someone tells me to stop "AFKing" games. Lol

Stay classy, TwinkInfo

Trialkiller said:

Despite people claiming I'm some infamous shit poster / troll I've yet to receive any warnings or infractions... keep that in mind, guys. It's really not hard to follow the rules and if you're someone that's getting banned and repeatedly warned you can easily change your habits and avoid that sort of action from moderators.

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You're definitely a shit poster and troll, but you've also only been registered during TI's (by far) most permissive period of its existence, so don't view the lack of warnings/infractions as some sort of special feat. There has been hardly any forum policing these last eight or nine months.

Broken said:

Hello everyone,

It's been a bit more than a month since talk of the Twink Charter first started. I talked to Myrm and we want to start finalizing it. Reason I'm creating a new thread is so that we can arouse interest once again.

We were hoping to hear more of your suggestions in the coming week, like in the last thread. And then when the new Mods are selected (also in about a week), the whole staff sits down, discusses and draws out a final new Twink Charter (CoC).

I'm quoting some of the suggestions for the Twink Charter from the previous thread (if I accidentally missed yours, PM me to add it or you can post it again). I didn't change words but shortened some posts so that they'd be to the point. Even then, the amount of awesome suggestions is huge. I apologise if anyone minded that.


Yde's first draft

Conq's suggested draft

Lets hear your ideas, people. Lets get this done!

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1. Having a charter (or a CoC, w/e word you want to use) is pointless if things it says won't be enforced, or will be enforced but only in a biased fashion. This site has a long history of unenforced/selectively enforced rules that ended up helping no one and only made matters worse. What makes anyone (especially Myrm and the current staff) think that a new CoC is going to be the silver bullet TI needed to be better again?

2. The main issues with this site stem from the fact that this is a fan site with nothing anchoring it to the rest of the Wow community. People don't have to ever come here, even if they do want to build a twink or find a twinking community. In fact, that player who is trying to build their first twink or find some people to play with is better off not coming here, completely avoiding the cesspool of massively inflated egos and bad attitudes which have plagued TI for years.

3. If you want TI to be a place worth coming to, you have to find a way to ground it with the rest of the community. You have to staff it with people who actually get paid to produce content (news, videos, guides, events, ect) and you have to support those staff with mods who also get paid to make sure a specific set of standards are being upheld on the discussions side of the forum. Take a look around you. What is one of the things that all the successful Wow related websites have in common? Paid staff, doing professional quality work to give people actual reasons for trafficking their site.

If you go to the Wow website (or Wowhead, MMO Champ, Wow Insider, ect) and you make a thread calling out a player who bothered you, expressing your frustration with expletives and foul language, you would be shut down immediately my the moderation staff. You might get a temp ban on some websites, or an instant perma ban on others. The reason for this is that facilitators of those websites understand the importance of creating a specific environment for people to come to. So they put forth the required effort to make that a reality, one where people don't get to sit here for 3 days ranting about how much they hate someone before a mod comes along and decides maybe something should be done about it.

4. The best CoCs are easy to read, understand, and avoid over complication by being clear on what's not allowed. They should protect people's privacy while giving them a platform to share ideas and content with other people. They should avoid discrimination, embrace individuality, and promote personal growth/development. Bob should be able to come to TI and discuss his BM monk build without being harassed about BM being OP and something no one should play. John should be able to come here and ask a question about something there is limited information about without being made to feel stupid by what should be his peers. Emily should be able to feel good about participating in a discussion or event without fearing backlash because she's a girl or someone knows personal stuff about her and might share it publicly.

All these things have happened on a regular basis on TI, regardless of what the CoC said or who owned/ran the site at the time. Everyone wants to appear as though they care about a cohesive, productive community of twinks who just happen to want to share info, but no one seems willing to put forth the effort in making any of this site a better place for twinks. We should probably get rid of titles such as the Alpha and Omega. We should probably get rid of paid benefits that elevate members to a protected status, exempt from the rules we are all supposed to follow. We should probably do our best to be as all inclusive as possible and break down the barriers of exclusivity people keep putting up here on TI.

Instead of having events like the Twink Cup where only the select few groups of people get to participate because they just happened to be friends/guildies before the Twink Cup, you should sponsor activity that helps build the community. Recruit no-names and people who have never twinked before to participate in your Twink Cup. Build guilds on servers that aren't the main hub for a bracket and use that activity to help grow the twinking community, with prizes and tournaments meant to encourage participation rather than find the best of the best to win a bunch of money. People are more likely to come together to celebrate each other than one specific group of people, and improving things for everyone is a much better cause than rewarding one person who just happens to be good at a video game.

The causes of the twink community are what helped it grow in the past. The causes now are what... defending the bracket/class/spec choices you make from criticism? Making sure you're part of the cool-kids club? Getting your shitty stream some views? How is any of that a worthwhile cause? I mean shit, let's discuss the fact that twinking is dead in Legion. How is twinking going to move forward without it's main purpose being a factor? Twinking was always an attractive prospect because there might be a way to min/max that provides better performance compared to the popular/conventional way. As long as the point of twinking was to fight others with the best gear/enchants you could obtain, people would get together and build twinks to smash against each other.

With stats from gear and enchants being completely marginalized in the next expansion, making everyone the same regardless of gear, twinking no longer has a point. Or rather, the only points left will be the community and nostalgia. People who are too fucking clueless to let go and move on. What effect will your Twink Charter have on the community then? Will you be able to look back at any significant improvement because you made this thread about that particular topic?

But yeah, words will fix stuff. No doubt.

willix said:

1. Having a charter (or a CoC, w/e word you want to use) is pointless if things it says won't be enforced, or will be enforced but only in a biased fashion. This site has a long history of unenforced/selectively enforced rules that ended up helping no one and only made matters worse. What makes anyone (especially Myrm and the current staff) think that a new CoC is going to be the silver bullet TI needed to be better again?

2. The main issues with this site stem from the fact that this is a fan site with nothing anchoring it to the rest of the Wow community. People don't have to ever come here, even if they do want to build a twink or find a twinking community. In fact, that player who is trying to build their first twink or find some people to play with is better off not coming here, completely avoiding the cesspool of massively inflated egos and bad attitudes which have plagued TI for years.

3. If you want TI to be a place worth coming to, you have to find a way to ground it with the rest of the community. You have to staff it with people who actually get paid to produce content (news, videos, guides, events, ect) and you have to support those staff with mods who also get paid to make sure a specific set of standards are being upheld on the discussions side of the forum. Take a look around you. What is one of the things that all the successful Wow related websites have in common? Paid staff, doing professional quality work to give people actual reasons for trafficking their site.

If you go to the Wow website (or Wowhead, MMO Champ, Wow Insider, ect) and you make a thread calling out a player who bothered you, expressing your frustration with expletives and foul language, you would be shut down immediately my the moderation staff. You might get a temp ban on some websites, or an instant perma ban on others. The reason for this is that facilitators of those websites understand the importance of creating a specific environment for people to come to. So they put forth the required effort to make that a reality, one where people don't get to sit here for 3 days ranting about how much they hate someone before a mod comes along and decides maybe something should be done about it.

4. The best CoCs are easy to read, understand, and avoid over complication by being clear on what's not allowed. They should protect people's privacy while giving them a platform to share ideas and content with other people. They should avoid discrimination, embrace individuality, and promote personal growth/development. Bob should be able to come to TI and discuss his BM monk build without being harassed about BM being OP and something no one should play. John should be able to come here and ask a question about something there is limited information about without being made to feel stupid by what should be his peers. Emily should be able to feel good about participating in a discussion or event without fearing backlash because she's a girl or someone knows personal stuff about her and might share it publicly.

All these things have happened on a regular basis on TI, regardless of what the CoC said or who owned/ran the site at the time. Everyone wants to appear as though they care about a cohesive, productive community of twinks who just happen to want to share info, but no one seems willing to put forth the effort in making any of this site a better place for twinks. We should probably get rid of titles such as the Alpha and Omega. We should probably get rid of paid benefits that elevate members to a protected status, exempt from the rules we are all supposed to follow. We should probably do our best to be as all inclusive as possible and break down the barriers of exclusivity people keep putting up here on TI.

Instead of having events like the Twink Cup where only the select few groups of people get to participate because they just happened to be friends/guildies before the Twink Cup, you should sponsor activity that helps build the community. Recruit no-names and people who have never twinked before to participate in your Twink Cup. Build guilds on servers that aren't the main hub for a bracket and use that activity to help grow the twinking community, with prizes and tournaments meant to encourage participation rather than find the best of the best to win a bunch of money. People are more likely to come together to celebrate each other than one specific group of people, and improving things for everyone is a much better cause than rewarding one person who just happens to be good at a video game.

The causes of the twink community are what helped it grow in the past. The causes now are what... defending the bracket/class/spec choices you make from criticism? Making sure you're part of the cool-kids club? Getting your shitty stream some views? How is any of that a worthwhile cause? I mean shit, let's discuss the fact that twinking is dead in Legion. How is twinking going to move forward without it's main purpose being a factor? Twinking was always an attractive prospect because there might be a way to min/max that provides better performance compared to the popular/conventional way. As long as the point of twinking was to fight others with the best gear/enchants you could obtain, people would get together and build twinks to smash against each other.

With stats from gear and enchants being completely marginalized in the next expansion, making everyone the same regardless of gear, twinking no longer has a point. Or rather, the only points left will be the community and nostalgia. People who are too fucking clueless to let go and move on. What effect will your Twink Charter have on the community then? Will you be able to look back at any significant improvement because you made this thread about that particular topic?

But yeah, words will fix stuff. No doubt.

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Wooooooosh


Said everything I've been trying to say for a long time now and put in a better collection of words. I very much applaud this post.

willix said:

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Correct me where my experience is not representative of the community.

1. Selective moderation seems to be an issue for... a select group. None of us can eliminate someone else's bias, so there's really nothing for it to campaign for unbiased moderation; it's just not realistic, and a paycheck won't eliminate bias either - not to mention that I don't think TI has the funds. The mods do say that they discuss potential bans before enacting them, so if you can't bring yourself to trust them, or if you do wind up banned, you might as well be the one to make the change. Also, Yde's Discuss Moderation thread could be helpful for those who are dead set on contesting minor disciplinary action.

2. I agree that there's little need for this site, but when its revenue stems from ads and donations, it's up to you to provide the funds you think will anchor it. But if you want to distance TI from the egos and bad attitudes, I think you'd have to parse the forums down to every thread requiring moderator approval, with every response heavily moderated. If that's necessary in order to reach this goal of yours, I think too much of the community would be alienated for TI to continue.

3. Again, where are these funds going to come from? Without funds but with heavy moderation, you could cut TI down to just those things you want: news, videos, events, and guides. What you'd have would, imo, be satisfactory in terms of quality, and you wouldn't have to spend the big bucks. I just don't think TI would endure such a change, my way or your way or whosever way- it'd become a totally different site.

4. I get how you think a CoC should be, but this is a thread for drafting one. Why not at least address Yde's first draft?

I've seen plenty of instances of people sharing info and trying to make TI a better place, so I think your experience is not indicative of the whole. However, because there is a variety of visions for bettering TI, some people's effort is not always seen as such. If you eliminate titles such as Alpha and Omega, if you eliminate paid benefits, if you try to eliminate exclusivity, I think you're going to fight a futile fight. Almost all people are conceited by nature, and they'll come up with new ways of exalting themselves at the expense of disparaging others. I had a look at your post history, and I see your 4 likes given, and I think you're in the same camp as the rest of us. I do agree that the Veteran and Elder plates could go, though, as well as the MVP lounge.

I did most everything in the paragraph corresponding to this one on Vashj, and it worked without money. It was a lot of work, and I burned out; I went about matters with a bad method, and things changed. When the bracket was new, it was fresh and exciting and full of noobery and camaraderie, and fewer people took up the FotM. You can apply that to TI - the FotM is an older community bitter about things not being the same as the golden days, whenever those were. I think you're trying to apply a new man's look to an old man's community - or maybe this is all just seasonal depression as TI awaits Blizz's next big change. All in all though, you're talking about what we should do in the same place that you say that people - like... you? - should step up.

This paragraph definitely looks like seasonal depression as you look to the future with pessimism. 3.2 was supposed to kill twinking, too. When you talk about the twinking community, you talk about a larger population than TI, so I doubt Legion will be the end of min/max twinks getting together to smash.

Now you're getting so pessimistic, I wonder, why do you even bother? Looks like you've given up on twinking.

Because this was never addressed in the discussion of a move to Xenforo:
On Xenforo, you can enable a user group (perhaps paid!) to be able to create their own private subforum. Mods cannot access this section unless brought in by the creator. This is the answer to the crossroads we are at. On the public side, rules will be observed and the CoC enforced. In private forums, anything goes- within reason, (I'd suggest doxxing, child pornography and the like remain bannable with proof of such posts). If you want to create a private forum dedicated to flaming the nonsensical drivel spewed by [MENTION=13421]Allybeboba[/MENTION] and the long-winded blowharding of willix, or discuss V-Quality, or even an BMAH of twink items and accounts, GO FOR IT.