Separate f2p/veteran forums discussion

Trialmop said:

you have just stated that you would basically pick out the threads for both Vet and F2P right?

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I think I would approach it like this, if it happened:

A) Everybody would still be welcome to post anything they want in the bracket-at-large forum (Level Twenty Twinking) which is where information that applies to more than one group could be found.

B) If F2Ps decide that they want their own exclusive forum for discussing F2P-exclusive issues, then threads of that nature would take place there, and existing threads that meet that criterion (threads that exclusively apply to F2Ps only) would be moved there.

C) If (and this hasn't even been asked for at this point) Veterans decided that they want their own exclusive forum for discussing Veteran-exclusive issues, then threads of that nature would take place there, and existing threads that meet that criterion (threads that exclusively apply to Veterans only) would be moved there as well. They won't be forced to move to their own forum if they don't want to, just as the F2Ps aren't being forced to move, but if we offer it to the F2Ps then we would offer it to the Vets too if they asked for it.

This is how I would see this happening. It's also entirely possible that tomorrow Myrm could unilaterally decide that the whole thing is too much bother and throw everything back into one 20-29 section, so I don't make any guarantees.

Kincaide said:

I think I would approach it like this, if it happened:

A) Everybody would still be welcome to post anything they want in the bracket-at-large forum (Level Twenty Twinking) which is where information that applies to more than one group could be found.

B) If F2Ps decide that they want their own exclusive forum for discussing F2P-exclusive issues, then threads of that nature would take place there, and existing threads that meet that criterion (threads that exclusively apply to F2Ps only) would be moved there.

C) If (and this hasn't even been asked for at this point) Veterans decided that they want their own exclusive forum for discussing Veteran-exclusive issues, then threads of that nature would take place there, and existing threads that meet that criterion (threads that exclusively apply to Veterans only) would be moved there as well. They won't be forced to move to their own forum if they don't want to, just as the F2Ps aren't being forced to move, but if we offer it to the F2Ps then we would offer it to the Vets too if they asked for it.

This is how I would see this happening. It's also entirely possible that tomorrow Myrm could unilaterally decide that the whole thing is too much bother and throw everything back into one 20-29 section, so I don't make any guarantees.

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Hey thanks you put that Yde explanation on that one your pretty awesome too. That southshore 1 you set up was great. Hey sorry to bother you in any way. I truly wanted a separate F2P specific section and I understand you are a mod so you will have to make concentrated moves if this goes through.(clearly I am pulling for B)

Keep things like they are but the thread tags need work.

Oh, haha, the bullet points were not meant as different arguments, btw. just emphasis. I separated the argument according to the different concerns people had with it and bolded my own main issue with the tags.


I've stated my opinion enough by now, so this'll be my last post on the issue.

I feel like Kin's idea on what'd be the only way forums could be restructured is a step back again. It only plays on the "but I don't want to play with them" concern, which I honestly think is whiny and no base for success. Any actual "identity" support is removed, threads will in fact be harder to sort and display, it led to no-one using it in the past and would likely do so again, removing any potential for community consolidation.

And I completely agree with this post:

AlbinoCow said:

Isn't nearly every thread prior to the introduction to vet solely f2p information as it was the f2p forum then? F2ps want their own sub forum for two things, better organization (~35% of the reason) and to gain back f2p identity / community (~65%) because of course its much easier to join a specific group (f2p) when they have their own area, rather then mixed in with another group as well. Part of the great amazing attractions to f2p are actually the part memories already held, those memories are shown and enjoyed in those previous threads. If we are gonna get cake, I'm going to fucking eat it, i think most ppl agree with that

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If that is the the only option available, since it loses the organisational advantage that was my main motivation, I'm going to have to agree with this:

Goesid said:

Keep things like they are but the thread tags need work.

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I'd prefer improved tagging as well.

Sorry to those who were banking on my continued support, but I don't want a split at all cost, only if it's done logically.

I don't quite follow your response Yde. The point that seemed to make sense as far as making a separation of the two account types was that F2Ps, being the minority in the bracket, were having a hard time finding threads that were just for themselves because they were getting buried and pushed back amongst Veteran and bracket-wide threads. At no point was it ever on the table that the F2Ps, who by their own protests are the minority (given that their threads are the ones being buried), would claim sole possession of years worth of threads, for several reasons. One, as I've already said, the content of those threads applies to both account types, so it doesn't make sense to deny those threads from the Veterans, and two, and in my opinion more importantly, at the time those threads were created we were all one community, and the content of those threads belongs to ALL members of this community, not just the (again by your own concerns) minority who are still playing F2P. If you were to imagine that the F2Ps would get their own forum, and that all the old threads would become theirs exclusively, then effectively what you're proposing is that the minorty F2Ps would vote to kick the majority Veterans out of the community and make them start over with their own threads, and I'm telling you all right now, that's not going to happen because there is no scenario I can imagine where that would be even remotely fair to the majority of members of this bracket who participated equally in creating that content.

I don't know what you mean about losing organizational advantage, when we've been saying all along that the whole reason for even considering F2Ps having their own forum would be so that they can instantly see, in one location, the content that solely applies to themselves. That's an organizational advantage that Veterans wouldn't have unless they also wanted their own separate forum. The idea that the F2Ps would get their own forum and take all the old content for themselves instead of leaving it for the bracket as a whole is asking far too much. I'm surprised that you don't see that.

At this point I've kind of given up on pointing out that these are all the same exact arguments that were made when we first had to address this issue. The very same arguments. The arguments haven't changed and I don't expect they will. As I said in my first post in this thread, there really isn't any for or against argument that could be made that hasn't been made before. The only thing that may have changed is the direction the majority would now vote on the same issue: the possibility that this time around, instead of violently rejecting having their own forum, the F2Ps would now accept it. The continuation of this discussion is kind of predicated on the assumption that there's a possibility that the swing of the vote may have changed... but as far as the arguments have concerned, we've been here before.

Does it matter? If so can someone explain why?

In re-thinking this, there really isn't a good way to separate things out. I say leave it as it is. I can't honestly remember if or what I voted for back when vets emerged, but the problem we have now came from the decision we made. I agree that people playing vets right now are responsible for a good deal of the content in F2P; however, people who decided to play vet made a change from F2P. The "Level 20 twinking" forum should not have emerged including vets. We should have voted to not touch the F2P forum and have a new sub-forum created for vets. Vets decided to change how they were going to gear and play, not abiding by F2P "rules". Is it wrong to do that? Of course not. Is it still partly F2P? Sort of, but it isn't the same thing that F2P has been and still is in regards to gear. Just because most vets were part of F2P doesn't mean they get to remain in the standard F2P forum forever. If an old school F2P decides to subscribe and roll at 23, their new posts with 23 relevant content doesn't get to stay in the F2P forum simply because they helped to create much of the past threads. I realize that vets are the same level as F2P, but we all know it's not the same in many ways. Vets and F2Ps do share a good deal of things in regards to planning events and such, but so do 29s and they have their own section and that works well.

Anyway, now we have vet and F2P content mixed up in a bucket and trying to remove either group's content is not reasonable. We need to leave it the way it is. If people want to play as vets, that's fine, I have no beef with that. I may have some vets of my own soon, but this is the way it is and I think should stay, unless the staff can come up with some amazing silver bullet of a solution.

There seem to be very few who are bothered by the way things are now. It's been stated before that in compromise, not everyone gets exactly what they want in favor of finding a workable solution for all. The site is functional as is. The one practical concern is minor and a reflection of a reality those bothered by want to reverse. Even if it is to be addressed, isn't there a way to implement sorting that would not involve the trade-offs of breaking everything else that's working? It's like upsetting the apple cart in order to get to that one special delicious piece of fruit, when it can already be gotten at patiently without upsetting things. Bad metaphor maybe, but really what's so unusable about the site as is? Unusable, not inconvenient. The compromising attempt having been to distribute inconveniences as evenly as possible while maintaining usability. The squeaky wheels are getting an awful lot of attention that I would predict a silent majority might claim is unmerited. I have one vet and a starter of each class plus a few. I'm happy with the current setup.

Myrm said:

Can I get people's opinions on whether they'd like to see this subforum split into a f2p forum and a veteran/p2p forum?

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Merge all into one bracket called 20-29. No reason not to. The special snowflakes who want their own forum can die in a fire.

Threads really don't "get buried" all that quickly though. If you look at the first page right now there are threads on there right now that have not had a comment in two days. If it is relevant enough, someone will come along and, at the very least, give it a friendly "bump" even if it does get regulated to the second page.

Sweetsidney

Once again walls of text that only serve to complicate the topic. Ofc f2p threads belong in the f2p section. Enough with the mudslinging. If it makes you feel better I will personally compile links for the vet section.

Yde said:

Oh, haha, the bullet points were not meant as different arguments, btw. just emphasis. I separated the argument according to the different concerns people had with it and bolded my own main issue with the tags.


I've stated my opinion enough by now, so this'll be my last post on the issue.

I feel like Kin's idea on what'd be the only way forums could be restructured is a step back again. It only plays on the "but I don't want to play with them" concern, which I honestly think is whiny and no base for success. Any actual "identity" support is removed, threads will in fact be harder to sort and display, it led to no-one using it in the past and would likely do so again, removing any potential for community consolidation.

And I completely agree with this post:



If that is the the only option available, since it loses the organisational advantage that was my main motivation, I'm going to have to agree with this:

I'd prefer improved tagging as well.

Sorry to those who were banking on my continued support, but I don't want a split at all cost, only if it's done logically.

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Yeah that is what I was asking, before vet even existed the forum was just f2p and not just a level 20 forum. It would leave the idea that vets are the ones that would need to pick out threads for themselves. F2P would not need to move anything, its just Vets info and stuff would be separated and put together.

Make it 20-29 and just make sure it's tagged properly. If you don't like other threads don't click them. The other sections are sorted by the bracket they are a part of, no need for this to be different.

70s dont like 79s in the bracket, 80s dont like 89s and so on, they haven't been separated.

Activate said:

Once again walls of text that only serve to complicate the topic. Ofc f2p threads belong in the f2p section. Enough with the mudslinging. If it makes you feel better I will personally compile links for the vet section.

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There isn't going to be a Vet section until and unless the Veterans ask for one. The F2Ps are the ones asking for a separation, therefore the F2Ps would be getting the separation. The F2Ps cannot force their will upon the Veterans, any more than the F2Ps want to have the Veterans' will upon themselves.

If you don't want to take the time and effort to read the walls of text that deal with this topic, then the topic must not mean that much to you.

Activate said:

Once again walls of text that only serve to complicate the topic. Ofc f2p threads belong in the f2p section. Enough with the mudslinging. If it makes you feel better I will personally compile links for the vet section.

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Yes this is true a lot of that sorting info was kind of drawn out to the point it made things seem a little more complex than they actually are. You don't need to sort threads for F2P, you just need to remove the vet threads from this forum and rename it F2P Twinking again and bam its a separate F2P section.

Trialmop said:

Yeah that is what I was asking, before vet even existed the forum was just f2p and not just a level 20 forum. It would leave the idea that vets are the ones that would need to pick out threads for themselves. F2P would not need to move anything, its just Vets info and stuff would be separated and put together.

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For the last time, no. Before vets existed there was just a level 20 forum. It is true that 98 percent of that forum was F2Ps, but that's simply because F2P was the only option. The PEOPLE who made up that community haven't changed, and the PEOPLE who made that content still have as much claim to it as you do. You guys are being serious bullies right now. You are not going to steal the content created by the entire community and squirrel it away just for the use of the small minority of the bracket. Stop pushing this issue.

Kincaide said:

There isn't going to be a Vet section until and unless the Veterans ask for one. The F2Ps are the ones asking for a separation, therefore the F2Ps would be getting the separation. The F2Ps cannot force their will upon the Veterans, any more than the F2Ps want to have the Veterans' will upon themselves.

If you don't want to take the time and effort to read the walls of text that deal with this topic, then the topic must not mean that much to you.

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Well I do agree somewhat, The Vets are enforcing their will on F2Ps by even being here. This was the F2P section , the soul and heart and now its overrun with this other stuff. If F2Ps want their own section they should be granted the section it took them years to build. Its like a tribe is forced to live with a group of people and share their homeland and when they want to be separate from the intruders they are told you have leave your homeland instead of the people that intruded upon your homeland. Not really that fair or reasonable. If the decision was F2Ps should have their own section F2Ps would get their section back and as a result only one additional section would need to be made rather than 2.

Kincaide said:

For the last time, no. Before vets existed there was just a level 20 forum. It is true that 98 percent of that forum was F2Ps, but that's simply because F2P was the only option. The PEOPLE who made up that community haven't changed, and the PEOPLE who made that content still have as much claim to it as you do. You guys are being serious bullies right now. You are not going to steal the content created by the entire community and squirrel it away just for the use of the small minority of the bracket. Stop pushing this issue.

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Hun? it wasn't a level 20 forum, it was a F2P forum. People twinked at 20 with p2p enchants but they used the 20-24 section for that. People even had level 21s 22s and used the 20-24 forum. The F2P section was never for all level 20s but rather the trials or F2Ps rather. That has been pretty clear. It has always been for F2P not every aspect of level 20 just F2P.

Trialmop said:

Yes this is true a lot of that sorting info was kind of drawn out to the point it made things seem a little more complex than they actually are. You don't need to sort threads for F2P, you just need to remove the vet threads from this forum and rename it F2P Twinking again and bam its a separate F2P section.

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How would that benefit your community? Honestly I'm interested. If it benefits F2Ps in any way I think it should be implemented. If it's just being petty to those "mean ol' vets", then I think it's a bit of a cheek asking admins and mods to indulge you.