WoD CC changes

Shinela said:

As you may all know, I'm not much of a PvPer at all
But taken from my perspective, from the few PvP I do..
These lockout interrupt spells which also do silence, are they really used as lockout spells? They're nearly always used as a silence on my priest and shaman, not as an interrupt. But that might be because I'm never in the high brackets. Maybe.
But then again, I don't see how this is "dumbing down" the game either. The thing is, you're with less CC, so, you have less time to think on what your enemy might do, and you're no longer based on "CC that kill that". You now have to change your strategy in combat aswell. In fact, it'll make things harder. I found CC being just something annoying as hell, both use and take.
Removing disarms on the other hand I find was unnecessary, but we can't have everything, can we?
Removing Charge's stun.. Yeah it's been WITH stun for years now.. I think that too was unecessary. It'll make things harder in PvE aswell though, I have to admit. But we'll see how things go.

Yes, I'm a PvEer so I don't really know too much about these things and how affective they are, but this is just my opinion about all this ^.^

Do have a nice day nontheless, good chaps
yours truly
Shinela

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I think the better disarm change would be to remove weapon chains from the game completely and just have disarm last 4 seconds, on the other hand I think removing charge stun is a good thing, if you want the charge stun you should be forced to spec it, (warbringer) which is the best talent in that part of the tree anyway. overall the changes are almost perfect in my eyes, nobody will know until at least the beta though, Korean's can get access to it now.

Shinela said:

I don't see how this is "dumbing down" the game either.

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Okay let me explain to you why these changes are dumbing down the game then.

"Removed all Disarms."
Doesn't really need any explanation. I don't even get why they are targeting disarm. It's always used as a peel, not to mention that most disarms are on semi-long cds.

"Reduced the number of Diminishing Returns (DR) categories."
This is just simplifying the game, but will also result in people sitting less CC, so I guess that's alright. But once again they could fix the same issue without simplifying the game.

"Removed many CC spells entirely, and increased the cooldowns and restrictions on others."
Removal of abilities doesn't need any explanation.

"Pet-cast CC is more limited, and in many cases has been removed."
This is the worst. Especially as someone who plays a hunter, this will once again dumb down the class significantly, taking away pretty much all reasons to have binds for pet control etc.

"Cyclone can now be dispelled by immunities and Mass Dispel."
Flat out retarded change. Takes away most of the unique traits of cyclone and puts it one step closer to just being a generic repentance type cc.

"PvP trinkets now grant immunity to reapplication of an effect from the same spell cast when they break abilities with persistent effects, like Solar Beam."
This is also just making the game significantly easier to play. You don't have to worry about getting refeared when you trinket or anything. It's the same stupid mentality they used when they changed AM to just remove silences. You don't have to worry about anything, you don't have to be aware of anything.

It has been obvious for a while that blizzard are moving WoW towards a more casual audience. I just wish they would keep their hands off PvP.

[MENTION=9054]Razzerz[/MENTION] why don't you tell me a little bit about why you think these changes are so great? I think we can all agree that moving towards less overall CC is a good thing, and these changes are certainly accomplishing that.
But wouldn't you agree that they could easily do it without streamlining and simplifying the game so much? How about reversing the dispel change? or how about adding cast time or other unique setup requirements to some of all the instant CC we have flying around atm?
You are not actually presenting any arguments, instead you're just telling people to quit the game. xd even shinela did a better job of defending your case, and he doesn't even pvp.

Razzerz said:

I think removing charge stun is a good thing, if you want the charge stun you should be forced to spec it, (warbringer) which is the best talent in that part of the tree anyway.

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lmao

How is it making the game simple? if anything it ups the skill cap.

Razzerz said:

How is it making the game simple?

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How is removing disarm, removing pet cc, removing many CC spells entirely, merging dr groups and making the trinket give immunity to the type of cc you just trinketed, making the game simpler? What a brilliant question to ask. Holy shit. xD

Tell us some more about warrior charge while you're at it x)

Onlydreams said:

How is removing disarm, removing pet cc, removing many CC spells entirely, merging dr groups and making the trinket give immunity to the type of cc you just trinketed, making the game simpler? What a brilliant question to ask. Holy shit. xD

Tell us some more about warrior charge while you're at it x)

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Because you are actually going to think about when you use CC instead of spamming every cc you have until something finally dies.

then I have to ask you: what game have you been playing?

You wanna have less cc in the game? How about we talk about when they put all dispels on an 8 second cooldown (a change I still think is the most retarded thing they ever did to wow pvp). Reversing that would be a big step in the direction they're trying to go in here, without simplifying the game even more.

You seem to really like how PvP worked in TBC, so the vast majority of these changes should sound absolutely dreadful to you. Yet you're clinging to the popular opinion that these changes are good.
You're kinda contradicting yourself here.

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I only mentioned BC as a baseline for CC being very sparse (compared to now) with most of it having a CD or a cast time. Back then you had to intelligently use your CC or you would miss the opportunity to kill your target. These days, that's not the case. Even if you spam your CC on CD/DR, you won't be punished for doing it. Putting defensive Dispel on a CD was the appropriate move at the time because you could just spam the dispel button and CC wasn't effective enough. Between then and now they've significantly increased the amount of CC in the game, now it's almost like the CD on defensive dispel needs to be significantly shorter (2 seconds). I'd rather just see them reduce the number of CC altogether.

As I said before, these changes are the best changes to come to the game in a long time.

willix said:

I only mentioned BC as a baseline for CC being very sparse (compared to now)

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wtf did you just say? xD Are we both talking about The Burning Crusade as in the World of Warcraft expansion where level 70 was level cap? Because in TBC everyone sat years of cc. Do I have to remind you of 10 second ccs, and things like cheap and kidney not dr'ing? How about sitting a 5 second gouge until you left combat and then got sapped?

As I've said multiple times already, I think they are going in the right direction in terms of reducing the amount of cc you sit in the game, I just think they could've easily done it without all the dumbing down/streamlining/simplifying.

I don't think reducing the amount of cc and other abilities is the way to go, I think they should look at other things like making more cc have cast time or unique setup requirements like deep freeze, trap and sap etc. Or reversing the dispel cd change. Those things would've accomplished the same goal of having to sit less cc without the simplifying.

wtf did you just say? xD Are we both talking about The Burning Crusade as in the World of Warcraft expansion where level 70 was level cap? Because in TBC everyone sat years of cc. Do I have to remind you of 10 second ccs, and things like cheap and kidney not dr'ing? How about sitting a 5 second gouge until you left combat and then got sapped?

As I've said multiple times already, I think they are going in the right direction in terms of reducing the amount of cc you sit in the game, I just think they could've easily done it without all the dumbing down/streamlining/simplifying.

I don't think reducing the amount of cc and other abilities is the way to go, I think they should look at other things like making more cc have cast time or unique setup requirements like deep freeze, trap and sap etc. Or reversing the dispel cd change. Those things would've accomplished the same goal of having to sit less cc without the simplifying.

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Rogues were an outlier, one of the only classes with that much CC. Everyone else had maybe 1-2 buttons they could CC with. The point I'm trying to make is concerning the number of CC abilities. Not the duration or the DR.

Going to have to throw out my owl now. Choices for hunter pets are going to get slimmer which is (visually) lame
The rest, whatever, I'll play it as it comes

willix said:

Rogues were an outlier, one of the only classes with that much CC. Everyone else had maybe 1-2 buttons they could CC with

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1-2 buttons? rofl no. But sure, rogues had the most cc, but the base cc duration was still 10 seconds, and there were still more dr groups resulting in less dr'd cc. Overall TBC is known as the expansion where people sat through ages of cc.

willix said:

The point I'm trying to make is concerning the number of CC abilities. Not the duration or the DR.

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Let me quote your previous post here:

willix said:

Back then you had to intelligently use your CC or you would miss the opportunity to kill your target. These days, that's not the case. Even if you spam your CC on CD/DR, you won't be punished for doing it.

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Doesn't sound like you're talking about the amount of cc abilities, does it? To me it sounds like you're saying that we sat less cc back then and therefore had to use it more carefully, which wasn't the case at all.

Let me quote your previous post again:

willix said:

Between then and now they've significantly increased the amount of CC in the game

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Sure, they've added a number of different cc abilities to each class since then, but they've also reduced the number of dr groups and changed the base duration of cc to 8 seconds. The biggest difference between now and then is still the dispel cd.

Anyway, this is getting slightly off topic. And I've already made my point: I agree with the direction these changes are going in (towards less cc) but I disagree strongly with the way they're doing it.

To an extent I am glad they are doing something, I don't think it matters too much in the 70 bracket but at 90 CCs are pretty out of control.

Everything written is good. Compare the amount of cc (and even spells/abilities) now to the amount in vanilla/BC/wrath and then consider the general trend in the quality of pvp balance (not that vanilla was particularly balanced, but it sure was fun)

Yes Im sure nothing cept Level 100 will be able to play RATED Arena considering you need to be level 100 for Trial of the gladiator which is only way to play it. They are bringing back skirmishes tho but its still not same thing as Rated Probs gona join Argent Dawn and their Pve raidin guild :3

Meat said:

Everything written is good. Compare the amount of cc (and even spells/abilities) now to the amount in vanilla/BC/wrath and then consider the general trend in the quality of pvp balance (not that vanilla was particularly balanced, but it sure was fun)

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Glad someone agrees.

Mønøri said:

Yes Im sure nothing cept Level 100 will be able to play RATED Arena considering you need to be level 100 for Trial of the gladiator which is only way to play it. They are bringing back skirmishes tho but its still not same thing as Rated Probs gona join Argent Dawn and their Pve raidin guild :3

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Trial of the Gladiator didn't go through they are forgetting that entirely, if you read the update you would know this.

Meat said:

Compare the amount of cc (and even spells/abilities) now to the amount in vanilla/BC/wrath and then consider the general trend in the quality of pvp balance (not that vanilla was particularly balanced, but it sure was fun)

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So you're saying the amount of cc in tbc and wotlk had a direct correlation to the class balance compared to now? That's a bit far fetched.

How can you say everything on the list is good when you only need to read two lines to get to "Removed all Disarms."?
Do you also think it's a good idea to make cyclone md-able?

Im glad you can MD cyclone and im glad you can no longer chain things like PoM poly into CS > fear > horrify > silence > ect. At 90 I have the misfortune of playing a DK but I did push up to 2k s14 and there were teams where I was locked so hard I could hardly play. A good team with decent CC chains is getting to be absurd and with current burst damage it just makes the 90 bracket moronic, comp matters more than is should and decent players with a good comp can pretty much lock someone out the entire game and force CDs before using burst. I suppose my biggest concern is that the game was easing back towards the days of MLS / RMP domination in Cata where you could almost Perma CC someone while having better burst than every other class.

For example one of my friends played warlock in Cata and ran MLS, they got 2700 2 seasons in a row and said the extent of their play was to fear out of poly, port when trained, dot, and pillar and that a 1700 player could of gotten glads running their comp. I also know a rogue who got 2300 and backpedals s11 because he had legendary daggers and a heroic vial.

I think toning down CC and Burst and maybe normalizing class damage a bit more is a step in the right direction, classes like DKs for example really suffer since they aren't able to CC like other classes, have poor mobility and even though they have good burst their damage can easily be out shined by a good mage, warrior, ect.

Apparently UH is crazy thus far this season however, so who knows!

Smh blizzard at it again to try and ruin what is already great and make the game easier than it needs to be.

Why does it make it easier? It just makes it less stupid...Some cc their victims almost until they die and you can barely do anything about it.