Whitemend/Spellfire and PvP/Heroic TBC Gems in SL - Discussion

Rejuvenizer

Veteran
Opening this thread as a general discussion for how people are feeling by the arguably 2 most "busted" things that are causing twinks to be so powerful in the upcoming Shadow Lands expansion.
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My take:

Pvp Gems: Make lower level twinking absolutely insane. We're currently seeing 10-19 twinks with about 60-80% crit on ptr while having the main stat of the average level 40. Shit's broken... but insanely fun. It gives me flash backs of MoP lvl 80/85 twinking, everyone one shotting other ppl and it being a shit show, but interesting none the less. The only issue I have with these gems being available to lower levels are that there are only +5 Intel/+5 Crit and +5 Agil/+5 Crit gems purchasable for 1 mark of honor. The +5 strength/+5 crit gem is no where to be found. (Unless you are high enough level to run heroic BC dungeons where you can loot +5 str +4 crit gems, Avail @hopfully 27 (even tho ptr rn says 30)). Yes I did a parenthesis inside a parenthesis...HOWEVER, the reason that I'm still okay with this is because the weapon enchant "crusador" still procs for 100 str at any level. Thus, giving strength classes there own "broken" tool under the 29th level threshold.

However, while the crusader enchant does even the playing fields, I would prefer blizzard just add a +5 Str/ +5 crit gem and nerf the enchant.
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Whitemend/Spellfire: Well, I'll just start by saying anyone who knows me in game and/or has tuned into the 80-89 tournaments that I've hosted knows that, even on live, I hate this set. However, not due to the clothies that wear it. It's more the whitemend/spellfire abusing resto druids/MW monks that make the game unfun/unfair for a lot of other classes.

Now for the SL side of things. With a new item coming out in shadowlands, this set will be available for craft at every 5th level after 15 (correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I've heard) including all the way up to 50. On PTR right now, there are level 50s running around with this set topping charts. This set gives a super heavy bonus to anyone who is able to benefit from spell power, not just clothies (as seen on live with mw monks/rdruids). Basically making this set baseline for at least 1/2 of the twink population in SL. Thus also making it a very caster heavy meta. At least, those are my predictions anyhow.
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"But Kane," you say, "Didn't you just say that you love that MOP feeling of one shotting people? Why do you hate whitemend/spellfire so much?" Well, thank's for asking. As previously mentioned I don't hate the gameplay it inspires, I only hate the fact that that type of gameplay isnt available to everyone. Not even everyone, because there's always a few left out, but a majority of classes. If you really are a hard pressed melee player, then there is a chance you're class is just obsolete due to this set existing and thus not being able to play the class you want to play. In brackets other than the 10-29s, the gems will not have as much of a crazy scaling impact as something like this set will. And the weapon enchant "Crusader" will not close the power gap between such classes.
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TLDR: If I were in charge of the small indie company named Activision Blizzard, I would deactivate the set like they have with so many of the tier sets and make +5 Main Stat + 5 Crit gems available to all class types
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Anyways, that's my opinion. What other thoughts/comments do you guys have on the upcoming twink scene in SL?

Also, what brackets do you plan on playing?
 
I mean, its kinda expected that certain procs and set bonuses are going to be BiS or popular when you allowing scaling with the item. I imagine this is going to happen with quite a few items as Blizzard has opened the flood gates on them, and it might require some balancing. I don't mind spellfire/whitemend because its very much a glass cannon style set up, you get a lot of damage but you lose some secondary stats and a lot of stamina, but I guess if it becomes popular(or if any profession items become popular) we will see if balancing takes place. I don't think they should deactivate it the set, perhaps they could put a level max on it if they must stop it from being at higher levels/max, but its one of the staples of the 70 brackets and its high burst.
 
It gives me flash backs of MoP lvl 80/85 twinking, everyone one shotting other ppl and it being a shit show, but interesting none the less.

Very good description of MoP 80-85 twinking. Similar to Cata 49 twinking.

This set gives a super heavy bonus to anyone who is able to benefit from spell power, not just clothies (as seen on live with mw monks/rdruids). Basically making this set baseline for at least 1/2 of the twink population in SL. Thus also making it a very caster heavy meta. At least, those are my predictions anyhow.

I think your predictions are spot on. I'm not concerned about the PvP gems, as they're so disproportionately busted compared to other gems at lower levels, that a couple of weeks of F2Ps blowing up battlegrounds will get Blizzard's attention and they'll fix it. That, in turn, will bring the Whitemend/spellfire combo down to 70-79 levels...which is still nuts. Blizzard may stealth deactivate that set bonus as they've done with other BoE set bonuses e.g. Raine's Revenge.

Also, what brackets do you plan on playing?

F2P to begin, SL 19s to see how far I can push the gear (and I think they will end up getting games). SL 29s if enough old-school 70s take interest in trying some games. I don't see SL 39s nor SL 49s getting off the ground unless Blizzard re-merges the BG queues, as those two brackets will either pose a serious gearing challenge i.e. BiS might come from raid gear, or become carbon copies of lower brackets but with more abilities, which won't inspire people to try those brackets.
 
Great points, I love the idea of main stat + crit replacing the current pvp gems. And please 5 main stat and haste :). But to add, I would rather get 1 shot 40,000 times and take my rogues current like 10k-4K duel ratio to super negative then them remove more set bonuses. Set bonus adds so much flavor to any twink bracket.

my fix: with the merge blizzard is going to find all these things that are making scaling in pvp similar to wod 2.0( for those of you that played high brackets you know what I’m saying) and they will hopefully nerf this gear or just reactivate set bonuses and alloweveryone to have access to some awesome stuff again to semi even the playing field again.
Well rant over, obviously mad respect for @Rejuvenizer, @Kirise and @Warriors101 thoughts and input. I’d love to see this thread garner many more opinions.
 
Can you learn outland tailoring at 15 though? Without it you won't be able to activate the set bonus.
 
Set bonus adds so much flavor to any twink bracket.

my fix: with the merge blizzard is going to find all these things that are making scaling in pvp similar to wod 2.0( for those of you that played high brackets you know what I’m saying) and they will hopefully nerf this gear or just reactivate set bonuses and alloweveryone to have access to some awesome stuff again to semi even the playing field again.

Truly, this. Set bonuses offer great options and flavor, and I'd much rather see them scaled properly (and reactivate raid set bonuses! C'mon!) than see more gear nuked. But such a change would impact a cubed fraction of a percentage of players, so I don't see Blizzard putting in the effort for so little payoff.
 
TLDR: If I were in charge of the small indie company named Activision Blizzard, I would deactivate the set like they have with so many of the tier sets and make +5 Main Stat + 5 Crit gems available to all class types

These have been disparities all throughout BFA. Honestly 70+ twinking is a shitshow because of how imbalanced the spellpower set bonus is. Destro locks oneshotting other twinks with choasbolts (if you spell reflect that shit the warlock oneshots himself from 100% usually). Arcane mages killing enemy twinks in 2 globals. Ridiculous. Which is why I didn't twink in the 70 - 100 range. The set bonus should have been broken forever ago.

The gems are a harsh reality we've had to swallow. My 59 and 69 warrior are loaded up with 6 strength gems. I definitely do not except Blizzard to care about adding gems for strength, but they should and probably will disable that dumb cloth set bonus, finally.

I was wondering what spellfire/whitemend would mean for the 29 bracket. Will be hilarious if it's breaking other brackets too. As it stands, it looks to be another ranged and healer dominant meta

I would rather get 1 shot 40,000 times and take my rogues current like 10k-4K duel ratio to super negative then them remove more set bonuses.

Well, ok, but keep your masochism to yourself.
 
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These have been disparities all throughout BFA. Honestly 70+ twinking is a shitshow because of how imbalanced the spellpower set bonus is. Destro locks oneshotting other twinks with choasbolts (if you spell reflect that shit the warlock oneshots himself from 100% usually). Arcane mages killing enemy twinks in 2 globals. Ridiculous. Which is why I didn't twink in the 70 - 100 range. The set bonus should have been broken forever ago.

The gems are a harsh reality we've had to swallow. My 59 and 69 warrior are loaded up with 6 strength gems. I definitely do not except Blizzard to care about adding gems for strength, but they should and probably will disable that dumb cloth set bonus, finally.

I was wondering what spellfire/whitemend would mean for the 29 bracket. Will be hilarious if it's breaking other brackets too. As it stands, it looks to be another ranged and healer dominant meta



Well, ok, but keep your masochism to yourself.
Set bonuses are an integral part of higher level twinking. Slowly but surely they have been being metad out because of the removal of many of them, and to see that blizzard not only acknowledged that they kept this one in, but actually fixed it to make it work again is awesome. You guys over play the set so bad that it’s hilarious, you only get 17% extra spellpower based on your total intellect, at the loss of a lot of base health and secondary’s , So for clothies this effect is most strong. Other classes lose much more and also gain 17% bonus spellpower based on their intellect but lose a base of 5% of their total intellect by breaking the armor passive. And for these other classes most of them need more secondary’s and lose about 5%~ damage reduction to physical attacks through armor loss.

Long story short, the classes you all cry that one shots because of spellfire and whitemend can still do the same thing without the set just maybe slower and in most cases fair better because they are more balanced in stamina and secondary’s. It’s honestly more a class balancing issue.
 
Long story short, the classes you all cry that one shots because of spellfire and whitemend can still do the same thing without the set just maybe slower and in most cases fair better because they are more balanced in stamina and secondary’s. It’s honestly more a class balancing issue.

I agree mostly with this

we have some OP sets in 110
(full mastery benefit in chaos bolt, aimed shot 15% dmg, boomkin 25% crit dmg and 30 extra AP) just for examples.

No one complains about the boomkin one even though it’s just as powerful as a bonus, because moonkin doesn’t have stupidly powerful single hits(2-3 Starsurge=1 aimed at 110)

the weaker spec/classes just get left behind due to having lower hitting abilities usually. So less effectiveness out of sets aimed at glass cannon hits


I won’t be dropping azerite gear for spellfire on my 120 boomkin, and likely won’t for 120 mage.

(Why? Because azerite gives a similar high main stat amount but has high stam too. My azerite gives me healing, bleed cleanse proc, 20% enemy slow proc, secondary stat buffs, move speed bonus, etc). All my specs have azerite traits to increase base dmg of Pyroblast, glacial spike+ice lance, arcane blast/missiles


For lower brackets it’s fucked simply based on imbalance (arcane blast/Starsurge/cbolt are usually stronger the lower you go, and those are the main things you die to from a set bonus twink) I guess that is why we have the XP separation.
For wargame brackets it’s just a negative having the set available for all brackets. If they nerf crusader from 100, STR (and agi dps already) is at a heavy disadvantage to tailoring sets in the lower non-10 brackets
 
Set bonuses are an integral part of higher level twinking. Slowly but surely they have been being metad out because of the removal of many of them


You guys over play the set so bad that it’s hilarious, you only get 17% extra spellpower based on your total intellect, at the loss of a lot of base health and secondary’s , So for clothies this effect is most strong. Other classes lose much more and also gain 17% bonus spellpower based on their intellect but lose a base of 5% of their total intellect by breaking the armor passive. And for these other classes most of them need more secondary’s and lose about 5%~ damage reduction to physical attacks through armor loss.


Fully agree that set bonuses are awesome and should have stayed in the game. It’s tons of fun and makes for some crazy builds for lower level brackets.

but berry, u know damn well that whitemend/spellfire doesn’t only increase dmg by 17% for clothies and 12%(17%-5% For quick maths sake even though it’s slightly off) for other classes. Why is this? I have no idea, I think the actual number for locks/mw monks/feral Druids is about 70%. I’ve done some testing at 85 and those seem to be about the number. Again, Idk if it’s just blizzard’ scaling fucking it up or some other in game bug with the set. But it is most certainly not a slight defensive loss for a slight offensive gain.

And again, I rlly don’t mind the set. I enjoy the quick play style. I wouldn’t complain at all if everyone had access to something similarly busted.
 
I agree mostly with this

we have some OP sets in 110
(full mastery benefit in chaos bolt, aimed shot 15% dmg, boomkin 25% crit dmg and 30 extra AP) just for examples.

No one complains about the boomkin one even though it’s just as powerful as a bonus, because moonkin doesn’t have stupidly powerful single hits(2-3 Starsurge=1 aimed at 110)

the weaker spec/classes just get left behind due to having lower hitting abilities usually. So less effectiveness out of sets aimed at glass cannon hits


I won’t be dropping azerite gear for spellfire on my 120 boomkin, and likely won’t for 120 mage.

(Why? Because azerite gives a similar high main stat amount but has high stam too. My azerite gives me healing, bleed cleanse proc, 20% enemy slow proc, secondary stat buffs, move speed bonus, etc). All my specs have azerite traits to increase base dmg of Pyroblast, glacial spike+ice lance, arcane blast/missiles


For lower brackets it’s fucked simply based on imbalance (arcane blast/Starsurge/cbolt are usually stronger the lower you go, and those are the main things you die to from a set bonus twink) I guess that is why we have the XP separation.
For wargame brackets it’s just a negative having the set available for all brackets. If they nerf crusader from 100, STR (and agi dps already) is at a heavy disadvantage to tailoring sets in the lower non-10 brackets
The main problem is the gems atm, 5 int 5 crit being so easily accessible and stackable is insane. Back then you halfed your main and secondary’s but now the gem is pretty much the best you can get in so many ways
 
I agree mostly with this

we have some OP sets in 110
(full mastery benefit in chaos bolt, aimed shot 15% dmg, boomkin 25% crit dmg and 30 extra AP) just for examples.

No one complains about the boomkin one even though it’s just as powerful as a bonus

yup! And this was exactly my point earlier. At 110 everyone (Most classes) has access to this crazy azerite gear and strong set bonuses. Makes it fun! But imagine 1 set giving a MW 70% increased dmg done and it caused them to be able to 100-0 you with a RSK. Seems a little whack hah
 
Fully agree that set bonuses are awesome and should have stayed in the game. It’s tons of fun and makes for some crazy builds for lower level brackets.

but berry, u know damn well that whitemend/spellfire doesn’t only increase dmg by 17% for clothies and 12%(17%-5% For quick maths sake even though it’s slightly off) for other classes. Why is this? I have no idea, I think the actual number for locks/mw monks/feral Druids is about 70%. I’ve done some testing at 85 and those seem to be about the number. Again, Idk if it’s just blizzard’ scaling fucking it up or some other in game bug with the set. But it is most certainly not a slight defensive loss for a slight offensive gain.

And again, I rlly don’t mind the set. I enjoy the quick play style. I wouldn’t complain at all if everyone had access to something similarly busted.
I’m telling you it’s the gems, as a lock you would usually have to sacrifice int or crit to get one or the other, and so a glass cannon would want to stack all crit or all intellect, losing effectiveness on the set in one or the other because all intellect means no crit and no intellect means the set is less effective. But being able to stack close to the highest amount of stat points in both in each slot is insane
 
I’m telling you it’s the gems

I think the gems are strong but if we look at the variables going into the discussion, the only one causing anything to be unlike the others Is the set. By process of elim it has to be the set that are making casters so powerful. And, mind you I don’t even think that they are too powerful. I think dps classes give up significantly more with the hit to survivability, Glass cannon type playstyle if you will. Causing them to get rolled by a lot of other classes before even being able to use the dmg that the set provides. Legit my only complaint is this set being used on non clothies/healers and being scaled to unholy amounts.

Long story short, the classes you all cry that one shots because of spellfire and whitemend can still do the same thing without the set just maybe slower and in most cases fair better because they are more balanced in stamina and secondary’s. It’s honestly more a class balancing issue.

This is the only part that I completely disagree with. There’s no way people(and I when I say people I mean legitametly everyone)are making their toons intentionally weaker just to use a set bonus. A lock at 70 may hit for a 3.5k bolt without this set with all trinkets procced. The class would legit not exist imo. A mw monk with the set crit my sham for a 6.3k rsk, in the duels I was doing last night with my partner, he crit me for a 2.3k rsk without the set. The one of the few classes imo that have access to the set that shouldn’t use it because of the situation you described above are shamans due to already 100-0ing in a lasso.
 
I think the gems are strong but if we look at the variables going into the discussion, the only one causing anything to be unlike the others Is the set. By process of elim it has to be the set that are making casters so powerful. And, mind you I don’t even think that they are too powerful. I think dps classes give up significantly more with the hit to survivability, Glass cannon type playstyle if you will. Causing them to get rolled by a lot of other classes before even being able to use the dmg that the set provides. Legit my only complaint is this set being used on non clothies/healers and being scaled to unholy amounts.



This is the only part that I completely disagree with. There’s no way people(and I when I say people I mean legitametly everyone)are making their toons intentionally weaker just to use a set bonus. A lock at 70 may hit for a 3.5k bolt without this set with all trinkets procced. The class would legit not exist imo. A mw monk with the set crit my sham for a 6.3k rsk, in the duels I was doing last night with my partner, he crit me for a 2.3k rsk without the set. The one of the few classes imo that have access to the set that shouldn’t use it because of the situation you described above are shamans due to already 100-0ing in a lasso.
I have played extensively at 70 and I can tell you the disparage(at least in that bracket) is much smaller than that. I am not home so I can’t give real numbers, but I am just as careful around a me without the set as I am against one that has it. Sure it makes a class stronger, I don’t refute that. I just think it’s being made a much bigger deal than it is.
 
The Whitemend and Spellfire set really isn't as powerful as people might think it to be. Sure its amazing for damage as a glass cannon setup, but the loss of stamina and secondaries is really apparent the moment anyone starts focusing you. Even then the damage is not insanely high. It can one shot players with a high burst ability like chaos bolt, but often players will pop a defensive after the first time to mitigate at least some of the damage. You don't have haste so you can fairly easily be interrupted. Then your dead in the water as they will almost always turn their focus to you, unless you are able to flee(druid). It really is a defeat the enemy or be defeated set up, which makes it somewhat balanced unless there is a whole team of them. This doesn't even mention the time and cost to get the Spellfire set. The materials are not the easiest to get and when I had to get them were fairly expensive on the AH, it took some time. Then you have to farm for the Whitemend patterns(which has a decently low droprate for a pattern), and have the expensive/slow to farm for materials for each piece as well. If they disable the set, which I do not think they should do at all, they have to increase the rate of pattern drop and reduce the amount of materials needed, or increase the amount dropped, or both otherwise its not worth it at all. Its barely worth it right now at its current cost even with the set bonus(in my opinion).
 

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