19 10v10 Spring Tournament 2020

GGs to all guilds after round 3 - finish strong in round 4!

Standings after Round 3:
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"Fun Awards" after Round 3:
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What was the point penalty for a draw and not completing your round?
[doublepost=1591912272,1591912162][/doublepost]I demand a scooters vs inferno for the spring champion to rule them all
 
What was the point penalty for a draw and not completing your round?
[doublepost=1591912272,1591912162][/doublepost]I demand a scooters vs inferno for the spring champion to rule them all

Open to suggestions if GM's want to enforce that. CWS wants to play spacebar, spacebar doesn't want to play cws - that's where it stands as of right now. I've sent a compromise to their guild and they're still discussing as far as I know.
 
After careful consideration, Spacebar has decided to not participate in the Championship. We made this decision due to a myriad of reasons, some of which include:
-This tournament was started under the motivation to promote competition and visibility to the bracket. While it has accomplished this to an extent, the spring cup has also marred the reputation of our community to those looking in from the outside. A large part of this stems from the hosts of the tournament also playing in said tournament. There have been multiple instances where major conflicts of interest have arisen for the perceived sole benefit of CWS.

-We have stated in multiple ways how the “deathball” strategy is not an avenue of play that we find to be enjoyable for the players or viewers in the current state of Classic WoW. When we discussed this with CWS after our first game, they promised things would be different and that we would find a way to move forward (as they agreed there was a problem). The ending of that discussion was CWS deciding that they would continue to deathball, suggesting teams should just “get better”. They’ve stated that given their high RBG scores, this is obviously the way the game should be played. All this is without consideration of the countless players throughout the bracket(including certain CWS members), that have communicated that deathballing is boring and killing their desire to play 19 twinks.

-Therefore, given the possibility of another 0-0, 3 hour statlemate, the proposed “compromise” is something we cannot agree to. At a high level, spacebar believes that the deathball strategy is unproductive and damaging to the bracket. This is simply due to the nature of classic wow. It’s a “play not to lose” strategy that has a predictable outcome when teams are evenly matched within a game that has no time limits or FC debuffs.

-Given the above statements, we feel that playing in the championship would do nothing but detract for the potential positives that have come out of the tournament. We know the lengths people will go in order to win their own tournament, and we won’t compete in an ego match. So thank you to CWS for the time and effort they put into the tournament and we wish BTNE/Infierno the best of luck in the championship.

To everyone else, we greatly enjoyed the playing against all of you and look forward to scheduling some more games against y’all in the future.
 
As someone with no stake in the tournament (besides watching infierno lose), watching the first cws vs spacebar game was the most entertaining. Let's not forget that that game couldve been 1-0 spacebar at a certain point. It was enjoyable watching a team attempt to bust a strategy. Would have loved to have seen that again.
 
after careful consideration, while i roll this joint and consider carefully, it seems to me like there is some overwhelming bitch shit taking place in this thread.
 
Before I start, a lot of people have reached out to me with with constructive criticism and praise regarding the tournament - thank you for that. I also want to clarify the intent of the tournament from the actual tournament organizer/coordinator/host aka ME. I wanted to host a tournament to promote competition in the 19 bracket, specifically targeting newer guilds or guilds that are still working on building their team to compete at 19 10v10 premades. This was accomplished, we had many guilds get their first wins ever as a team and we had games that went toe to toe until the final cap. The tournament saw about 115ish unique players participate in at least 1 warsong gulch during the tournament. I'm excited about where the bracket is and the emergence of bowners guild <flankingUranus> and potentially <hyperbolic time chamber> entering the premade scene.

Right as the tournament started the wargames announcement changed the premading scene for every bracket in classic WoW with the ability to simple challenge anyone on your real ID friends list to a 10v10 battleground, the ability to have spectators to those wargames (shoutcasters as well), and the ability for faction vs faction:
  • The tournament really benefited from not having to sync q's and the only delays to games where those personal to guilds (not showing up on time/forfeits).
  • The tournament could have benefited and utilized the spectator/shoutcasting more, but with the complexity of the using the tool to position your point of view with the action that's happening in the wargame and the scarcity of shoutcasters - I decided to not push this on teams. I'm excited to see what the community can produce in regards to shoutcasting for future premades/tournaments.
  • The tournament did not utilize faction vs faction, which directly impacted only three guilds - two of which were ok with the decision. It's my opinion that the issue with faction vs faction is not playing the same faction, the issue is that guilds weren't prepared to play their side of the base at the beginning of the tournament. Moving forward, I hope guilds are open to competing against other guilds no matter faction or side of map.
Now let me tackle the big issue at hand, <can we stop>/<do you feel me> vs <spacebar>.

A lot of discussion has happened after the 3 hour 0-0 draw. This discussion has been made public and can be found in the #gm-discussion in the tournament discord, I recommend searching for Grizzly's message of "here we go again" and starting your read there. For those than don't want to read, I'm going to try and give you a unbiased tl;dr:
  • Neither guild enjoyed 0-0 for 3 hours.. do you feel me did not have enough damage to break the turtle of spacebar. spacebar sometimes tried to go offensive, but cws reacted with their full 10 preventing an offensive attempt and then continuing to full 9 man vs spacebars 10 man turtle for 3 hours. The result was a negotiated tie between Kashiwazaki and Walle.
  • spacebar feels that do you feel me forced them to turtle because of their 9 man offense and prevention of any offense attempts on do you feel me's FC
  • do you feel me recognized their mistake and admitted to being sensitive to any opponents around their FC and said they would change their approach to that for future games
  • spacebar denied any attempt at scheduling futures games against do you feel me unless they agreed to offense and defense splits only
  • do you feel me and spacebar have not played since the 3 hour 0-0 draw
Ok, baring a lot of shit talking and non constructive talk from the GM-discussion channel I think that's a good enough tl;dr.. but let me say I'm not purposely leaving anything out - I just think that these are the best talking points to focus on for the bracket to learn and grow from.

I disagree with spacebar on their take to force a team to play a specific way OUTSIDE of the gulch by implementing rules. Everyone is entitled to play how they want, and if spacebar wants to do force a team to play a specific way INSIDE the gulch I'm all for that. I disagree with spacebar denying do you feel me another opportunity to break their turtle or to pivot from 9 man offense when it's not an effective push within a warsong gulch. I'm not sure of spacebar's reasoning for this, I personally feel that if the two teams played again it would end in one team winning and one team losing instead of a draw. This leads me to question spacebars intent on dodging the championship series:
  • Spacebar, y u dodging? If you want to compete, you would at least send a counter to my offer instead of denying it outright. You want splits, it's been made public you think you're better than anyone else at splits.. I give you splits game 1.. I give you control of your destiny, the ability to bet on yourself as a guild, and you dodge? I think you guys are better than that.
  • Spacebar, if you have an issue with the tournament hosts participating in the tournament, y u playin? This was a known fact from day 1 pre draft stream.
  • Spacebar, u apologized to Bowner yet? Myself and many others used him as a scapegoat for the problems between our two guilds - in hindsight this was a huge flaw because it's obvious there are still issues from both sides and it's obvious that he made you a better guild solely for the fact he's willing to play gulch against whoever/whenever (he was the only one who wanted to play another game after cws beat HAVOC). Bowner did some things wrong, but he also is caught slack for our problems that weren't his problems - I sent him an apology, I hope you do too.
  • Spacebar, where are the major conflicts of interest that benefit CWS?
  • Spacebar, if you play us again and we do the same "deathball" strategy after we promised you a different approach - leave the game and never play us again.. the fact you're clinging to one game, one result, and allowing it to be a driving factor for dodging us is cheating yourself of potential victory, my guild of playing another competitive gulch, and the bracket of watching two teams put aside differences and just playing warsong gulch.
Moving onto other thoughts about the tournament. Here are some questions for you:
  • How did guilds feel about the time limit of 1 week to play 2 games? Was/is that enough time? I enforced that they games had to be played back to back, do teams like this or in the future would teams be open to playing one game one day and the other the next?
  • How do participants feel about having elected leaders from each guild representing them in a private chat to hash out issues? Do you feel like it would be better hashed out in a wide open forum?
  • How do participants feel about the style of tournament? Do you prefer a bracket best of 3 series each match with a losers bracket? Do you prefer to play everyone and take top 2 guilds with best record? Is there another preferred style of tournament play that hasn't been suggested that you'd like to suggest?
  • How do participants feel about the warsong gulch premade rules? Anything you'd like to change?
  • How can I use my platform as the GM of a top 19 guild to help the bracket? More bracket events? Public vod reviews? Bracket pug nights?

GGs to all around, even spacebar. Thanks to everyone for remaining patient with me during the trying times and finishing out all rounds/games to the best of your guilds ability. All guilds leave this tournament with things to improve on and things to be proud of.
 
First off, lmaox.

Secondly, I'm just going to copy paste a response I sent to BTNE because just like the 0-0 3 hour round 1 game, it literally isn't worth our time.

Walle what is the consensus with Hass's "olive branch game 1 splits, game 2 winner of game1 decides rules" offer to save the finals? I thought it was good enough to at least get the foot in the door to negotiate something

This is just me chatting and my personal opinion, but I don't see it as an olive branch whatsoever.

Think about how this all started: Supposedly a horde vs alliance tournament to promote the bracket. However, they've played toxic enough/held games hostage to the point where anything that isn't a deathball seems like a fair trade.. How is that an olive branch? That's a joke.

The situation described is CWS not only playing horde in finals, but playing the advantaged side. If we lost game 1 somehow, there wouldn't be a game 2. Deathball strat is a non-starter for us. The fact that cws doesn't get that yet, means there is literally no hope going forward. It's why players are completely uninterested, because in 4 weeks with all the back and forth, Hass still can't grasp that.

We said that rules that make the game end after a given period of time is a non-starter; This is along the same lines. Inorganic/self-imposed rules that are completely ridiculous, that are only being talked about because cws refuses to play in a non-toxic manner. What if plants dies on O? Can he heal scrappy when he rezzes? How do you police it? It's not how we play wsg, or how we're going to play wsg. If they have 7 on o, we're not going to be limited to 5 players on d. We'll clear our base how we feel.

You want a finals? It's asking something that cws isn't capable of. It's normal games, not "splits only" like this dickhead likes to put it, it's playing wsg the way it's fun. Breaking off after winning a mid fight, into a reasonable setup that can lead to flag captures. Find a way to make a best of 3 happen fairly. That's the requirement. We're not playing 3 hour 0 cap games, and they've lost any benefit of the doubt. That's not anyone's fault but their own.

The tournament served it's purpose according to hass. People got involved. The rest is just an ego competition - something we'll never beat him at.

It's why they run a strat that can't lose, but can't win vs better teams. So it is what it is.

Anyway, I'm glad you apologized to bowner. We certainly have discovered the root cause of the issues.



 
How much xpoff pay you for this and the traffic it brings?

i think the goal was to bring new guilds into mix and promote those games. Which id say 75% of the games from the “tourney” were good watches. Still a lot of 19 guilds out there on the come up too. 19s gonna beef is what it is.

I think the same faction is kinda whack seeing guilds spent time and money on being able to play opposite faction and journey to mankrik. Playing horde for advantages is weak imo it’s still new and different for my opinion.

I think beating the dead horse of spacebar and cws playing is dumb tho. The talk of we prob disband cause no one will play us this week is weak. Spacebar out there doin their thing aint missed a beat. Btne guys lost more games in the last few months than our wow careers. We kept going kept rerolling vod reviews etc. adversity kept us going. Sorry yall wont get your closure to whatever you seeking but take a break smell the roses come back stronger than ever.

I got love for everyone
 
lol at crying about how someone is fightin


edit: just to be clear before someone tries to speak on me and say some slick shit; i hate the turtleball but i respect it, i told hassman repeatedly fightin it is whack but i aint whining about it, seems like proper fightin technique to me
 
lol at crying about how someone is fightin


edit: just to be clear before someone tries to speak on me and say some slick shit; i hate the turtleball but i respect it, i told hassman repeatedly fightin it is whack but i aint whining about it, seems like proper fightin technique to me

I just want to fight, Real. :'( If I wanted my team to play TDM without me, I'd organize a Gurubashi Tourny
 
we all want to fight friend


Darwinism
 
Wouch review of the tournament...

The Good:
  • Lots of premades, which brings people together and potentially spotlights the bracket
  • Very few forfeits due to scheduling, it felt like the tournament was well organized and well paced
  • I liked the fun awards a lot! I wish there was a way to count Offensive dispels or kicks. I think I would have been the winner for Week 1, and per game!
The Bad:
  • I think there should have been an application process. I know there were some people who joined guilds that were invited to the tournament specifically play in the tournament. I think there was a lot of talented people left out who could have formed a Mankrik excess team, but instead replaced people on other teams etc. The fact we didn't get to see Ventrix (one of the top priests IMO) and a few others is a little sad.
  • I know it will never happen, but I wish everybody would roll Horde + Ally. It'd make the tournament more dynamic and balanced.
The Ugly:

I think this tournament is just yet an another example that WoW Classic just doesn't work as an "e-sport" -- race for world firsts have been a joke, duel tournaments have been a joke, and this 19 twink tournament has been a joke as well.

There's a huge disparity in talent between the tiers of teams. Other than 1 or 2 games, the rest of the matches have been 3-0 sweeps in 20 mins. Going back to my previous point, there were enough players who could have formed a team that would have been capable of competing better than like 5 of the guilds in the tournament -- players not in the tournament include: Johneffer, Ventrix, Exude, Hewters, and I am sure there's more.

And when we've had chances for good games, they just devolved into these 10 person turtleball strategies. I asked myself is 19s even worth playing if it's just 15 minute 3-0s or a 10 person turtle?

I don't even want to get into a discussion on the turtleball because we have discussed it enough. The CWS/Spacebar game left such a bad taste in my mouth, I literally quit playing WoW. I haven't logged on in weeks. I don't blame CWS for implementing that strategy in the first place (I am all for trying new things), or for responding the way they have to criticism. But people not wanting to play against you isn't them being afraid, it's that there is literally no reward for doing so. The only reason to play this game is for fun, and the fact is nobody enjoys playing against you.
 
Wouch review of the tournament...

The Good:
  • Lots of premades, which brings people together and potentially spotlights the bracket
  • Very few forfeits due to scheduling, it felt like the tournament was well organized and well paced
  • I liked the fun awards a lot! I wish there was a way to count Offensive dispels or kicks. I think I would have been the winner for Week 1, and per game!
The Bad:
  • I think there should have been an application process. I know there were some people who joined guilds that were invited to the tournament specifically play in the tournament. I think there was a lot of talented people left out who could have formed a Mankrik excess team, but instead replaced people on other teams etc. The fact we didn't get to see Ventrix (one of the top priests IMO) and a few others is a little sad.
  • I know it will never happen, but I wish everybody would roll Horde + Ally. It'd make the tournament more dynamic and balanced.
The Ugly:

I think this tournament is just yet an another example that WoW Classic just doesn't work as an "e-sport" -- race for world firsts have been a joke, duel tournaments have been a joke, and this 19 twink tournament has been a joke as well.

There's a huge disparity in talent between the tiers of teams. Other than 1 or 2 games, the rest of the matches have been 3-0 sweeps in 20 mins. Going back to my previous point, there were enough players who could have formed a team that would have been capable of competing better than like 5 of the guilds in the tournament -- players not in the tournament include: Johneffer, Ventrix, Exude, Hewters, and I am sure there's more.

And when we've had chances for good games, they just devolved into these 10 person turtleball strategies. I asked myself is 19s even worth playing if it's just 15 minute 3-0s or a 10 person turtle?

I don't even want to get into a discussion on the turtleball because we have discussed it enough. The CWS/Spacebar game left such a bad taste in my mouth, I literally quit playing WoW. I haven't logged on in weeks. I don't blame CWS for implementing that strategy in the first place (I am all for trying new things), or for responding the way they have to criticism. But people not wanting to play against you isn't them being afraid, it's that there is literally no reward for doing so. The only reason to play this game is for fun, and the fact is nobody enjoys playing against you.

Agree with everything but hewters has a team, perf just forgot to log on
 
I just want to say, despite all some of drama caused in this tournament it was still good to watch from an outsider PoV, I watched mainly all the games live and if I didn't I would catch the VoDs. Somethings I'd would like to see different in terms of structure of the tournament is the point system was iffy deducting points for caps against etc. A Game 2 should have been scheduled between Spacebar/CWS has it would have dictated potentially one of teams not landing in 1st. Or since there were no actual rules about what a draw would lead too it's either a W or L therefore it should been a Loss on both teams.

Tournament ofc was rushed maybe some weeks notice and people could of scrummaged up a team and add more teams potentially in the tournament or ones that would have been more reliable ie Best in Show no showing round 1, etc. But any event is good for the bracket and it is hard to run and manage a tournament. A 3rd Place match would be nice as well and do no harm btw.

Also to all the drama regarding CWS playstyle, it's all within T.O.S / not breaking any traditional premade rules. You can't tell a guild not to play a certain way that works for them to help favor yourself. It is like telling Shaq he can't dunk a ball cause no one is tall enough to guard him on your team. Regarding the specific 3 Hour game, I think it's a pride issue also due to the structure of the tournament and the point system. The game had its opportunity, and their coulda been a cap at one point in favor of spacebar and from their morals of players change on both sides for good and bad, and then who knows where the game leads from there. Also, take into consideration the multiple bathroom breaks and dead time in the game helps adds up to those 3 Hours. To think a game again would go that long with 0-0 scoreboard is absurd it only goes that way if you make it that way.

People should be willing to play whenever possible, should be thankful thanks to classic their are multiple teams to fill 10 to play. It has revived twinking.

A suggestion I would do is each leader/team (cws spacebar) do an anonymous vote to see how much of there players are truly down to play and how many refuse. bandwagon effect where maybe a hand select few are against it, and others that want to still play, shouldn't exclude each others guilds from playing cause each other leaders have differences. This is something that CWS did to me with Havoc by not signing up for Mankrik Pugmades for whatever reason, and now Spacebar is doing a Similar thing to CWS.

I hope your guys silly differences doesn't affect Mankrik Pugmades leading forward or the bracket in the general, you guys will eventually have to play each other again at some point as well so best to make up somehow.
 
Wouch review of the tournament...
The Bad:
  • I think there should have been an application process. I know there were some people who joined guilds that were invited to the tournament specifically play in the tournament. I think there was a lot of talented people left out who could have formed a Mankrik excess team, but instead replaced people on other teams etc. The fact we didn't get to see Ventrix (one of the top priests IMO) and a few others is a little sad.
  • I know it will never happen, but I wish everybody would roll Horde + Ally. It'd make the tournament more dynamic and balanced.
  • Application process? So create a barrier to entry? Players can get together and make teams if they want to play, if not that's on them.. not a fair critique of the tournament
  • I agree but I can't force teams do that
I think this tournament is just yet an another example that WoW Classic just doesn't work as an "e-sport" -- race for world firsts have been a joke, duel tournaments have been a joke, and this 19 twink tournament has been a joke as well.

I think your opinion of the 19 tournament being swayed by the one game you played is pretty naive. No one is trying to make WoW an esport either

There's a huge disparity in talent between the tiers of teams. Other than 1 or 2 games, the rest of the matches have been 3-0 sweeps in 20 mins. Going back to my previous point, there were enough players who could have formed a team that would have been capable of competing better than like 5 of the guilds in the tournament -- players not in the tournament include: Johneffer, Ventrix, Exude, Hewters, and I am sure there's more.

Again, not a tournament problem.. it's however a problem the tournament can solve. Maybe we see some moves between guilds, maybe we see people wanting to play in community events etc

And when we've had chances for good games, they just devolved into these 10 person turtleball strategies. I asked myself is 19s even worth playing if it's just 15 minute 3-0s or a 10 person turtle?

Again, one game. You're basing everything off of one game. I bet if you joined a guild like Infierno instead of joining spacebar you would have had a better tournament experience.. ask Fix.

But people not wanting to play against you isn't them being afraid, it's that there is literally no reward for doing so.

Fear has something to do with it. Look at Infierno for example, they probably knew that whenever they played us they would lose - that's a fair assessment because we're further along than them as a guild. They still showed up to play, they're still trying new things. You can look at Scooter's, they ALWAYS play no matter what. Are you going to tell them that they aren't having fun? I think they have the right mindset in that when you play the game you can sometimes lose, deal with it and move on.
 
Application isn't a barrier, if anything it opens things up. You could argue that the invite process itself was a barrier since myself and at least 2 others joined guilds to compete in this tournament because there was no application process and we would have happily created a team ourselves(team =/= guild). There's plenty of great players on Mankrik who barely, if at all, played in the tournament.

When I was a sponsored professional Magic: the Gathering player, I played on teams with people who had different sponsors. To me, it'd have been fun to create a team with other people in guilds that had more than 10-12 competent players. Legit, I understand why you did guilds, it makes it way easier from an organizational standpoint. I was merely just saying it would have been fun to spread the talent out that was sitting on the bench.

Now that that's out of the way I'll address a few of your strawmans in order...

"You're basing everything off of one game"

...I played against CWS and Scooter's in the tournament (the top 2 Alliance teams, yes?).

And I also played 3 premade games vs Early Endgame the week the tournament began (Also in the tournament, yes?). So, the only Alliance team I didn't play against was Horde Busters?

I think it's a little "naive" (your word, not mine) of you to think I am judging this based off of one game when I have played against more teams than one and watched all of the streams.

"I bet if you joined a guild like Infierno instead of joining spacebar you would have had a better tournament experience..ask Fix".

Not sure what playing with spacebar has to do with my points? I am able to form my own opinions/conclusions after playing in and watching the games in this tournament. I have talked to like 30 people from this tournament who agree with most of, if not all of my, points. Some of which are even in your guild and played in the tournament.
 
The only reason to play this game is for fun, and the fact is nobody enjoys playing against you.

Couldn't disagree with this statement more. I know several guilds that enjoy playing against CWS, they're always down to play and actually help other guilds improve.
 

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